I Think Gearbox Is Prolly Planning To Make Lilith Into A Future Main Villain

Actually, yes. I forgot about her being that way. Yep, you’re correct. Except she does have a moral high-horse because she’s richer than everyone. But I’ll go with it for now.

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Wish Granted?

Yes. Now make a version that can specialize in shotguns

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So tempted to look up a shotgun build baroness in response to this but i won’t bother lol

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To be honest i wouldn’t say i’m big on emotionally connecting with most video game characters. I emotionally connected with my DCUO characters for sure (but they each have 100s to thousands of hours on them, My Main Hero alone has like either 3000 hours or 300 Days or something on them back when you could still see this). I’m not sure of the actual definition of “emotionally connected” to say with any certainty that i can emotionally connect to a non-created character. But maybe i have and just don’t know what you mean when you say “emotionally connected”. Roland’s Death is still too this day a unwelcome pill too swallow and was a devastating truth to accept when i first played Borderlands 2. The Blow was extremely cushioned back then because i still thought new U stations were canon till i looked it up halfway thru the “Bearer Of Bad News” Mission but it was still devastating for me to realize that the only Vault Hunter i ever really actually cared for (lore-wise) in all 3 games was gone. I love all 16 Vault Hunters from a game-play standpoint but there has only one Vault Hunter i have ever really cared about Lore-Wise.

EDIT: And when Bloodwing Died it was so devastating i couldn’t play any more that day and just spent the day dealing with it by spending the entire day at a neighbors house distracted and spaced out thinking about the brutal murder of Bloodwing. I did the bloodwing mission just shortly after getting up in the morning so i spent the rest of the day not playing any games and was only able to continue playing after waking up the next morning. I knew immediately when it happened that Bloodwing was gone. I loved Bloodwing but i didn’t love him anywhere near the same amount as Roland. If there hadn’t been like 15 min’s to half a hour to cushion the blow and the shock of it my reaction would have been even worse then it was too Bloodwing’s Death.

Yo w’sup fools!

Since @ACNAero summoned me, I might as well say something. And by something, I really mean a really big wall of text and stuff, so please bear with me.

So the main idea is that Lilith would be made into a future main villain. The initial reasons to support this theory are as follows:

  • Lilith cannot remain rational because she’s mentally and/or emotionally unstable.
  • Lilith now has god-like powers which might end up corrupting her.
  • Lilith is willing and able of committing “evil” acts.
  • Lilith easily fits the Fallen Hero archetype.
  • The Fallen Hero archetype can easily be converted or shifted into the Main Villain archetype.
  • Every good story needs a good Main Villain.
  • Jack is dead, so the role of Main Villain is open.

Now, here is my stand: I disagree. Lilith wouldn’t make for a good Main Villain in future BL games without completely rewriting the character or changing the premise of the existing game-narrative structure.

To fully understand and appreciate my defense of my stand, one needs to be familiar with the original Borderlands game, with an emphasis on The Armory of General Knoxx DLC, Borderlands 2 + DLCs, and Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel + DLCs.

I will also be copying directly from past posts that I have made in the old forums that are relevant here.

First off, Lilith is impulsive, but far from being emotionally unstable. I’m sure she hates Jack with a passion, but I think anyone would, had he or she also been violated and tortured just right after seeing his or her love interest get shot in the back. And though she probably does have god-like powers at her disposal, that doesn’t necessarily mean that she will use her powers for evil. In fact, there’s no real account or evidence that Lilith would commit evil (relatively speaking, by Pandora’s standards) acts.

“Well, Lilith just tried to get Athena executed! So she’s got to be bad!”

Not really. The way I see it, Lilith could very well be justified in executing Athena, and Athena certainly did nothing to dissuade her either. Here is a comparison of the two of them.

Lilith has always been impulsive. We see this when she ignores Roland’s orders to stay in Sanctuary, and we see this when she acts like a dick to Mr. Torgue. Lilith followed Jack and company into the Elpis Vault more out of sudden whim than of a long, thought-out, well-planned strategy. She wants to see Jack fail, but murder was not actually on her mind. She destroyed the Vault symbol, which she thought would have been enough. I don’t think she had the forethought to see Jack murdering his way up the corporate ladder, or that Angel was assisting him along the way. Lilith never gave him that much credit, which is a reasonable assumption. Jack’s a ■■■■■■’ weak-ass, cowardly bitch. Plus, no one knew he had a Siren under his control. Well, maybe his wife did, but that’s another story…

Athena, however, is a reserved professional assassin, loyal to the mission above all else. The only time she flew off the handle was when she got stabby upon the realization that she had killed her own sister. After that, she used everything in her power to kick Atlas off Pandora for good. Despite her stoic demeanor, her rhetoric regarding Atlas Corporation implied a sense of righteousness, a call to a moral obligation. From that, the player can get the feeling that she’s doing this as a cause, to finally take a stand against Atlas, and not so much out of revenge (though revenge is still implied with this new cause of hers). Lilith knew that Athena. She had a cause, she had a motivation, she had an emotional drive that was simply more than just a paycheck. Athena even allowed Knoxx to get killed to stop Atlas, despite his genuine concern and respect for the former Lance assassin (though in her defense, Knoxx did have a deathwish, and if Athena wasn’t going to kill him, then he had hoped the Vault Hunters would). Here’s the intro to the General Knoxx DLC, for reference:

http://youtu.be/kdqGrqiMQCU

We see none of that in TPS. In fact, she shows little to no emotion throughout the game, reverting back to her mercenary mindset. Had she possessed that same fervor she did back in the Secret Armory of General Knoxx DLC, it could be reasonable that she would see Jack for what he was, and completely bail on him. Instead, she’s only in it for the money. There is no cause for her. She has no emotional ties to anyone involved. Her main motivation is to continue the mission.

So when Lilith asks Athena why she worked for Jack, Lilith was probably expecting something a little more than just, “I was paid to do it.” Could she have been duped like before with Atlas? Was she being blackmailed? No. Athena worked for Jack simply because she was paid to do so. She put loyalty to the mission first, over loyalty to people. After all, she could just be paid to kill everyone in Sanctuary, and not blink an eye of remorse. She chose to act like a professional assassin rather than like a real person.

And that’s what Lilith finds so infuriating. Roland was also ex-Crimson Lance, but that did not stop Roland from caring about others. Roland lived and died protecting others (while also killing others, to be sure, but those others were bandits who would have killed other non-bandit types). He managed to form the Crimson Raiders, who were former Lance soldiers with orders to kill him not too long before. He inspired leadership and camaraderie where only violence had existed. He was universally admired and respected, hated only by those who took to the way of banditry over community. Athena should have walked away from her past like Roland did. If anything, she suffered more than Roland had with the Crimson Lance, and should have more than enough moral justification to “fight the good fight.”

Yet, this Athena, the one who had worked for Jack and the one being interrogated by Lilith, lacked that moral outrage. Jack was clearly much more of a monster and ■■■■■■■ than General Knoxx ever was. Yet, she let Jack live after she had successfully fulfilled her mission. I can understand Athena being a bit upset with Moxxi and company trying to kill her, but after it’s all said and done, she should be ******’
royally pissed off that Jack duped her into thinking they were the good guys, that Jack put Elpis and Pandora into danger because of his selfish quest for power, that Jack would easily kill off anyone and everyone out of paranoia and expediency, and that Jack had put her and everyone else into those situations.

But she wasn’t.

Instead, Athena simply replaced Atlas with Jack, even if it were just a temporary arrangement. Athena had no loyalty to her former rescuers and allies. Athena chose to stay as a professional assassin, regardless of any moral dilemma she would have. In that regard, she’s no better than Claptrap. But at least Clappy can always be excused because he was programmed not to feel guilt. Athena consciously and deliberately chose not to.

Lilith knows first-hand of what Athena is capable of (even more than Brick or Mordecai since they were not on Elpis or Helios during the events of TPS), she knows that Athena willingly let Jack pursue his agenda, and she knows that Athena is a professional mercenary, putting the mission above all else, even her own morals. Athena knew too much and had no allegiance to anyone. That made her a very dangerous wild card. That was why Atlas tried to kill her before, and that is one reason why Lilith wanted her captured.

The other reason is that Lilith saw Athena as part of Jack’s inner circle. Nisha became the Sheriff of Lynchwood and the killer of Brick’s pet dog. Wilhelm became Jack’s right-hand man and the cybernetic
monstrosity that destroyed New Haven. (The Fragtrap was probably junked for spare parts, easily replaced by the more efficient combat Loaders.) But what about Athena? What became of her once Jack rose to power? She wasn’t there in New Haven, and she wasn’t there in the final assault in
Hero’s Pass. If nothing else, Lilith still saw her as one of Jack’s croonies, acting as Hyperion’s top wet-work agent as she did with Atlas. Lilith thought Athena was better off dead with Nisha, Wilhelm and Jack, particularly with Athena’s unrepentant (almost) last words. So in a fit of grief, anger, agony, and a probably-much-more-than-significant overdose of Eridium, she gives the order to fire.

Remember, Athena approached the first Vault Hunters to work with her. She had them do the dirty work to stop the same Crimson Lance that she left and “betrayed.” Now, she is seen working with Jack just before his rise to power. Even if Athena did leave Jack’s employ, she still allowed him to remake Hyperion just as bad, if not worse, than the Atlas Corporation that she claimed to despise.

With all that said, Lilith would definitely have a strong justification to execute Athena, particularly when Athena does nothing to help her case. And at the end of everything (thus far) it is Lilith who apologies for almost killing Athena, while Athena remains largely aloof about her involvement in Jack’s rise to power.

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I read this and have been thinking about it and re-watching the ending of Pre-Sequel for about the last half hour. However i am tired right now and have been for hours and on top of that i have to do some stuff before going to bed this morning. I’ll continue to maul over what you’ve said and see if i can figure out if does or does not contradict my theory.

I will say that i’m not at all certain that everything you mentioned to have contributed to Lilith’s decision to execute her was at all a part of her thought process when she decided to execute her. Lilith’s not stupid but she’s also not a deep thinker either and i doubt the decision to execute her was anywhere near as complicated as you make it sound. Yes, it might have been that complicated if Roland was making the decision. But Lilith doesn’t think like Roland.

I see Lilith as the same npc she’s in BL2 in BL3 also. She and Maya are sirens and Lil’s abuse of ridrock could lead into some nice twists in the story, but i can’t see her as the main villain in Borderlands 3. I could imagine something like stealing her powers by capturing her and doing some experiments on her, using her as a catalyst to extract her own powers.
The reason of me not seeing her as villain are simple: she doesn’t have the charisma needed and lacks the intellectual foresight and planning abilitys. I could see her in every role, but that role of a villain she will never fit in for me.

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No! I don’t want to fight Lilith! :smile:

I do like the way you think… I miss this gun.

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She wouldn’t need the charisma and planning of Jack. These are extreme examples but. Do you think Goku or Superman would need a bunch of Charisma and planning to be a even bigger threat then Jack. Again Lilith is nothing compared to the 2 examples i just mentioned but her method would be the same. She wouldn’t need deceit and cunning be dangerous. She would have Raw Power as her method. Jack was a human with human limitations. Lilith doesn’t share that weakness with everyone else. She doesn’t even have the limitations of a normal Siren thanks to Eridiam.

@SpiderTeo I only summon you for the big stuff. Plus I thought you would intellectually enjoy this one, seeing as BigBadDog isn’t a flamer.

@AMG_75 You can’t have it both ways. You either have to fight Lilith, or you don’t get your Double Anarchy

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How about we just meet Lilith somewhere. She smiles and says “sup” and drops the Anarchy on the ground for us? :sunglasses:

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And then it falls through the floor.

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No biggie, she probably has a couple more stashed in her bank at the Dome. :smile:

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That Jack blew up?

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I refuse to believe my gun stash blew up. The rest of the Dome? Sure. My guns? Safe and sound.

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I’ve always liked to entertain the question of What if Lilith is going through Eridium withdrawal? Because that can cause your brain to mess up pretty badly. Like: Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue. When he went cold turkey on heroin, he was having seizures and hallucinating that Mexican assassins were climbing on his walls tying to kill him. Who’s to say Lilith isn’t having some extreme withdrawal effect going on in her brain? Hell, even people just quitting cigarettes can become unnecessarily hostile towards everyone else.

Just a thought.

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I still 3 threads later ask anyone, how do you know the REAL Handsome Jack is dead? All we have is assumptions either way, whether he is, or isnt. I still think that vault showed him visions of what was to come, not, just brief glimpses for us the players to see, we as I previously stated, already know what happens in BL2. So itd make sense the vault gave him some sort of foresight to be prepared for certain things to come. As to Lilith you have to remember, Roland and Lilith were in a pretty intense relationship. As to how long no one knows. But if its any comparison to realistic relationships when you lose someone its not always so simple to get over it. I suspect Lilith was still hurting from the loss and dealing with a lot of grief and anger. Jack and anything related to him may be very much like a emotional trigger and she lashes out against any mention of him or people affiliated. Its possible, but I doubt it that she will become a villain, but Ive been wrong before…

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It’d be such a cop-out for them to bring him back.

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Not to mention the comment Angel made of multiple body doubles when you go to Opportunity.