#16

This is what I’ve been saying from the start, Moze always felt out of place to me due to IB.

There is no gear to farm for IB except class mods, there is no integration with the gun play element of the rest of the game. Anointments are only procced when getting out of IB, which right now can can basically go on indefinitely lol

#17

Fair enough, my flak is only level 50. His pets are still passive, and doesn’t waste time.

Opened my eyes a bit and I can see why IB may be better, but maybe that was the wrong question to ask actually. I stepped away from my arugment’s roots there, maybe this will get my point across, does gamma burst or rakk attack take Flak out of combat? Was summoning iron bear for auto bear worth it? More worth if we had our respective anoints? Are your guns taken away? What I’m trying to say is having your character stay in combat is actually the best utility ever :sweat_smile:

#18

I originally wanted to play moze bc of IB, then stopped pre-dlc 2 to make a zane. Glad to be able to level her to 60 and play with the mech suit I originally wanted to and actually be viable in bossing, not just a panic button.

1 Like
#19

Not really, since you needed a dank-ass roid shield for the Jacks to really bring the hurt. Without it they were good enough to bring some hurt, but the difference between a fully invested Jack and a 90% invested Jack was millions of damage.

1 Like
#20

The same thing also applies to IB, one with full investment is significantly stronger than just the base. Here is an example, this is how much an uninvested HDP does vs. flesh enemies at level 60:

That’s hardly anything to write home about especially given the horrendous fuel consumption and long CD IB has without investment.

But if I spec for him this number is ofc significantly higher (as it should be).

#21

Not at all.

However, my point seems to have been lost as well. I’m not really arguing specifically about what should be done with IB’s power level, as I mentioned in another thread it doesn’t bug me one way or the other. My point was that it isn’t correct to say that IB should be effective without gear because the other character’s action skills are effective without gear, when none of the other action skills are good without gear.

  • Deathtrap - you could get by with MiS and Upshot Robot, but to get to the point of AFK 1 shotting bosses you needed a good roid shield, or at least a good nova shield.

  • Digi-Jacks - Non-roided attacks are 350k. Roided attacks were 12mil. Even if it wasn’t a tremendous investment, you still needed to have at least 1 piece of gear dedicated to it.

  • Wolf - Like Gamma Fl4k pet, you couldn’t do anything gear wise to beef up wolf. He also took a minute or two in rolling thunder to start 1 shotting things before you could.

  • FL4K pet - Splash anoints, splash and AOE rolls, deadeye class mod. Depending on how deep you want to go, a frozen heart to keep enemies still for Scorcher pool.

  • Zane - Weapons the clone won’t ■■■■ his brain out with.

You could argue about the degree of investment each of these require, but it doesn’t change the fact that you still need certain gear pieces for them to really perform.

If you want to argue that IB should be more powerful naked because it replaces Moze, then have at it. It’s a solid enough argument. I just think you’re really mischaracterizing what you need for other action skills to work to make a point about IB.

#22

While I love playing Moze, I can’t help but feel a little disconnect as well. You can have all this cool gear and all these cool weapons for Moze, but if you’re in Iron Bear a good chunk of the time, you won’t be using them. All of Iron Bear’s “gear” comes from the skill trees (with the exception of the rare shield like Ember’s Blaze which stays active while in IB.)

Sometimes I wish IB was fundamentally designed more with the player’s gear having more impact. I dunno, just throwing ideas out here, but kind of like how Salvador’s weapon slots were paired up with primary and off-hand slots, Moze’s weapon slots could have been paired similarly and when you hop into IB, IB’s right and left arm weapons would take on certain characteristics of the weapons in those slots (red text effects, elemental damage, etc.) Shield effects could be transferred in a similar way. IB could have a grenade launcher built into him that fires off your grenade mod while inside (same button/key as a normal grenade).

Probably waaaayyyy too late to completely redesign IB like that though.

4 Likes
#23

If you’re referencing current patch then this doesn’t matter and is irrelevant since you don’t need any gear or investment for it to not already be stupidly overpowered. Might be right on a technicality in terms of actual numbers, but I don’t think you can really get stronger than afk rolling the hardest content in the game in less than a minute.

No one can actually defend this:

3 Likes
#24

As shown in my example above this is just flat out wrong. You just don’t need much “extra investment” as the things IB wants to have are usually also the things Moze wants to have anyways.

#25

Fair enough then. I agree with you that I probably understated what is required of other vault hunters to make an action skill damaging, however my understanding is that if IB takes you out of combat, he needs to be powerful in some way.

#26

The guy in the vid I posted is only using Rocketeer and a crap snowdrift. Like I said, you’re right on a technicality but when put into practice it doesn’t matter.

I’m not counting skill point investment as speccing for it when it’s not an “investment” and we have 60 points to put across the board with only one place to go.

I’d be agreeing with you before this patch.

#27

So you want the degree of investment to be higher to be able to reach this level? Idk how you can make the investment higher, there’s very little gear affecting IB. His passives that affected iron Bear damage were the AOE and AS damage. You’re not counting skill points as they are not an investment according to you. Can I get an understanding of what really is an investment? On maybe a different character? Because you lose out on skill points if you invest into dakka bear, stainless steel bear, etc.

EDIT:
just want to voice a solution to change it up, I really feel like anoints that affect IB himself will make him more gear dependent and it might not be so hard. Make a grenade anoint, shield anoint, and a weapon anoint and boom, 3 more pieces of gear to affect IB itself.

2 Likes
#28

No I don’t want the amount of investment to be higher to reach this level, I don’t think you should be able to reach this level in the first place. Which is again afk rolling the hardest content in record times.

I’m not counting skill points because with how weak the red tree is there is really no way you can’t tick all the boxes with 58 points, unless you are making the effort to pick the weakest options on purpose.

You’re missing the fact that while very few pieces of gear directly affect IB (can’t be changed without a complete overhaul), in current patch which is what we’re talking about you don’t need to focus on weapons or gear choices anymore. It comes in second to IB. Before M2.0 you might remember there were various ways to build up competing and viable builds - bear focused, a weapon focused, or a hybrid. If you wanted bear to be good, it required much more give and take. With base IB so strong you take away variety and creativity, not increase it because anything less than slapping on a rocketeer is peanuts in comparison.

3 Likes
#29

I’d argue that SPs and CM + artifact are already a significant part of the investment for any character as it already covers most of the damage multipliers.

Not really, SPs + CM + artifact have always been the main source of power for IB focussed builds.

#30

Maybe if the red tree was actually good, this debate over whether it is okay or not to stomp this hard with IB would be put to rest. Perhaps the solution is nerfing base IB enough to keep it powerful, but not better than a gear invested vault hunter? I really don’t know at this point, I believe balancing from this point forward is actually pretty hard.

#31

No, as shown above the base is already weak enough. People not counting investment as investment is not a valid justification for a nerf.

1 Like
#32

I agree. Base damage nerfs are the worst possible way to go about this since it is purely the scaling multipliers of mayhem that cause things to spiral out of control.

The most sensible solution would be to go over each action skill individually and adjust the scaling to something not ridiculous. Maybe IB doesn’t need 30x damage, it may only need 20.

I doubt this will be how this approached though.

#33

the best solution would be to return to mayhem 1.0

2 Likes
#34

Good luck with that :rofl:

#35

i suggested it in a ticket…^^