I would hope they leave Raid Scaling As Is

Seen a LOT more newbies trying the raid and it can be brutal…even at this per number scaling.

Played with a Fl4k that held back the entire time and let me soak up fire and kill everything. Don’t know what build but he was doing but VERY little DPS and very spongy. I got him to Wotan but it did not go well…

Next round was an Amara…who texted me in Chat saying…“Carry me Daddy!” That went worse than the Fl4k. LOL

And you know what…I really did not mind. These folks were dipping their feet into the Raid to see what would happen.

If they go back to the previous 4 player scaling…it will be…bad…

Forget about high raid population and the ease of finding partners.

perhaps a more skilled player could have carried these two folks…

That ain’t me…

I can solo this Raid with the new scaling…on Moze…but it’s no cakewalk and can be a hell of a fight.


TBF with the current scaling, increasing the number of players in the party likely disadvantages you, esp if they are not able to contribute meaningfully. The main objective of this event was to give players who don’t conventionally play multiplayer a shot at beating the Takedown.

For me, I am rather conflicted about the scaling. On one hand, I really enjoy the current event because for once the Takedown isn’t some ultra stressful experience, and Wotan/Valkyries are actually farmable. You also grow to appreciate the design, because Takedown really is one of the best designed maps in terms of spawns in the game.

On the other hand, it really doesn’t feel like a ‘raid’ anymore. You can kill the Valkyries with just about anything, and Wotan is really kinda a pushover. I mean he’s still tougher than any story boss, but a far cry from your Dragons and Voracs and Terras or BL2. You can beat him without a specialized build, and that makes him alot less special, and the Takedown into just another arena akin to the Proving Grounds or Circles of Slaughter.

I think a big problem of the Takedown is that it is a little too ambitious, hence making it far more intimidating than the Raids of BL2. It combines incredibly difficult mobbing portions akin to OP10 peak, with a very difficult raid. And then locking loads of important endgame guns and COMs behind the boss. While a proper raid spec in BL2 could efficiently farm raids, even an incredibly powerful build like Ricochet Witch or Chain Zane could easily die in the mobbing portions or by a minor mistake in the raid and be forced to go through half the thing again. Its really exhausting. Combined with the difficulty of farming ‘god-roll’ items in BL3, this makes this event a godsend, even if it cheapens the experience of the raid a little.

I think several solutions have been suggested. The best of both worlds would of course be to have a difficulty slider akin to Lvl 9 mutator, which allows you to scale your party. If that’s not possible (which may be the case given how GB encountered difficulties in planning the event) - then employing several of the following options would help:

  • Have a New-U right before Wotan and the Valkyries
  • Have all the Takedown drops (Kyb’s Worth, Redistributor, Moonfire) become world drops at M4.
  • Really increase Wotan’s drop rates.
  • Have the Takedown Scaling as a regular event, perhaps once every few months.

I agree…and like all your ideas…

They need to find a middle ground…totally agree.

While Zane and Amara good players with excellent gear/build can somewhat cakewalk…I am not having that experience on Moze. It’s at least “doable” now…at least for me…

Part of that is skill level from me…part character design… But the scaling actually made my experience with Moze MUCH more pleasant. They also gave Moze some damage buffs that have helped.

I LOVE the idea of a New U checkpoint right before Wotan…in the building with the ammo/health vendors…while at it…how about a respec station there as well GB??


Oh and I absolutely agree with you about the overall design of the takedown…

It’s really challenging and quite good.

The missing piece to me is a checkpoint / New U right before dropping into the arena.

For all that long slog…a player should NOT be penalized after he finally gets to the final objective…and fails.

Even those god awful, long, tedious, bullet sponge, jumping puzzle, stand in the Warlock circle and deal damage… Destiny 2 Raids have checkpoints before the final fight.

People think Wotan has a bunch of quirky mechanics? Go do a D2 Raid and tell me then what you think… :grinning:

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Three bad players doing raid scaled to 3p is still better than same 3 players doing raid scaled to 4p though. At least this way it works like the rest of the game as far as single vs. multiplayer. (for now)

Mostly agree with everything else you said though.

They should revert it to keep it true raid content and not pander to the timmy no thumbs who want to beat it with their awful builds. It is endgame content which should require your A game and best builds to even attempt soloing which 4 player scaling achieves unlike the incredibly easy solo scaling it currently has. If you have trouble soloing with 4 plyer scaling you just need to farm more and get better builds and that is how it should be. Sorry not sorry!


So many good thoughts in your post. I liked the idea of scaling before the actual event. Now that we have it scaling, I’m less enthusiastic. The Takedown just doesn’t feel as special. Regardless, they need to fix the rewards. If they had a more robust and reliable matchmaking system, I think the original raid design would work for more people. Having the option to select the scaling is nice in theory but I doubt they’ll spend the resources to make that happen. My 2 cents.


Basically how I feel as well. If the matchmaking was as effective as say, running a Strike in Destiny, then yeah I’d say leave it alone. But since that’s not the case, I’d say keep it scaled to party size. The idea that I saw in the other thread was to scale it for party size in Normal, and keep the scaling for 4 players in TVHM. You’d think that would be really simple to program, since obviously both scaling options have been programmed already anyway.


I guess you are directly addressing me since I am the OP. And I LOVE the nickname…”Timmy NoThumbs”

One of mine barely functions because of a nice little garden spot affectionately named “the sandbox”…

But I use a Mouse so maybe I’m just bad…:grin:

As I said earlier, I kinda agree with a “keep it more difficult” approach but wish they could find a better middle ground.

I play Moze and she specifically has real difficulties soloing the Blacsite at the old scaling.

And here’s the other problem…and it’s a lot bigger and more common across all shooter games and platforms and I see games like Destiny 2 constantly struggle with.

If you “pander” to the so called “skill” players…the content creators and the very small group of hardcore folks…you are actually pleasing a VERY small portion of your overall market. Yet if you go the other way and make things too casual and too easy…and “pander” to the “casuals”…then the content creators and small group of hard core players light up the media with negative comments about your game which also has a negative affect on your overall market. Although I have NEVER understood why a hard core player simply does NOT USE that OP equipment or build that makes things “too easy” In the first place…

Casual’s money is just as green as hard core’s money…and the reality is there is a HELL of a lot more casuals. And…try filling those matchmaking ques with just a very small portion of hard core players as your overall player base shrinks.

It’s a constant struggle for shooters to keep that “balance.”

It will be a challenge for GB in this game as well.


We had a poll going until it was shut down:


Timmy no thumbs is a generic statement for people whom lack any significant movement prowess or aiming ability in some cases as well. Ironically one of my thumbs doesn’t function fully either but I’ve adapted and now im better then I was when I had two fully functioning thumbs ( Amputation is a hell of a thing XD ). I can agree that they might make more money if they do pander to casuals as well but the raid content had always been scaled to 4 and nobody complained then to my knowledge so maybe its a big shift in the number of people who want everything to be a cakewalk perhaps?

Regardless I would rather they stay true to how invincibles were in past games and not castrate them to please the masses. Their is proving grounds and slaughters for those people and if they cant compete with 4 player Wotan they honestly need to take a step back and look at their flaws instead of asking for nerfs to the poor robot. I wasn’t talking about you exactly by the way, more so all the people who want to keep the single player scaling as a whole.

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No problem…

I had never heard that generic term and actually…it made me laugh… :grinning:

But I guess it might not to others and especially a vet who had a hand injury. Or anyone else for that matter.

Good Lord I sound so PC…

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Just FYI, some of the raid bosses scaled to party size in BL2…

Most of the past were only killed by bugs/glitches/unintended mechanics/broken maps.

People are now able to kill them with builds they like and not going for meta or cheese.

If they could have a scale as was mentioned or make UVHM scale the world to 4 people. I would be happy either way. But I would not use broken previous bosses as a way to repeat. Don’t get me wrong I was with some groups that could do it legit, but more often I felt like a nacho because of all the cheese.


Raid bosses in bl2 were set to 4 players. They did not scale. Thats how you could go to certain raid boss gates and it would cause the whole game to be set to 4 player difficulty. It stayed that way untill you loged out.

That was only Master Gee to my knowledge. Terra for example, scaled his health based on group size.

To my knowledge Gee was the only place to activate the four player glitch.

Someone pointed out in an earlier thread that Hyperius was scaled to 4 the rest were by party.

Edited because spell correct was incorrect


It was Paul Tassi’s from Forbes biggest negative about the Raid. He said it should’ve been scaled to player number from day one.

Although I don’t read much from him anymore as he has turned into such a negative Nancy…

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I like most of his stuff. His articles are generally pretty logical IMO, and he plays the hell out of the games he writers about, so you at least know his opinions come from that of a huge fan of the genre.

The poll should still be open; it’s only the discussion thread that got closed.