If I could fix some of Axton's BAD skills this is what I'd do

Borderlands 2 Axton the Commando
#22

@darreltan2004 Ha…I don’t think we are far apart at all in our thinking…

I asked Shadow to take a look at the Rifleman com and change the raw additive AR gun damage to multiplicative just like he did for relics. He said he would note it down as a possible future addition.

And I agree that damn crit penalty hurts AR’s especially really accurate AR’s like Dahl.

And shadow has done some nice things to Bandit AR’s, the Seraphim, Blasters and Shredders so it is definitely a nice improvement and a move in the right direction.

It’s the Crit penalty…more than anything else (in my mind) that somewhat hobbles ARs.

But I disagree with you that Axton was not originally intended as an “AR Guy”… When you write specific mods for AR use by him AND have a skill dedicated to AR only magazine size…the implication is clear. At least to me.

Agree that Maya is GREAT with SMGs
And Zer0 is great with Snipers (and virtually anything with crit capability…LOL)

So I guess that makes Krieg our AR guy…which seems…out of place…at least to me.

Lastly…although you and D might think AR’s are kinda OK where they are, I strongly believe D can make ANYTHING work because of his skill as a player and I got to thinking…

If AR’s are OK
What AR’s do I ever actually use…

And I came up with all of 4 which I have…one I don’t.
Ogre (Puple Spitter if I don’t have an Ogre)
Hail (Leadstorm as an alternative but it’s not as good or effective as the Hail by a longshot…at least to me)
Seeker
Bekah (but to be realistic, unless you use “the software”…nobody has a Bekah
Kitten (at special times when I need constant health rebuild)

Before I started UVHM I also used the Seraphim, Veruc, Scorpio, Blasters, Dahl Miniguns, Damned Cowboys, Hammer Busters, Generic Spinguns, And generic ARs…A LOT.

At the games highest levels…I am down to 4 since I don’t have a Bekah

And TBH I think most Axton folks are just like me.

Which is a shame…AR’s need some love whether individually or as a group IMHO. Getting rid of the Crit Penalty would be a great start…again…IMHO.

#23

I really like the Lead Storm, especially when using a beefour like setup. One more bullet to get the full amp and I find it kinda easier to aim.

Anyway, I think that some of the AR you mentioned can still work through OP levels. I also dont count the Damned Cowboy as it seems to be a filler until you get the Hammer Buster.
And being honest, removing the crit penalty may be the only thing ARs need as a whole. Same for the E-Tech SR.

#24

In the end…I tend to agree.

Get rid of that damn crit penalty and you have likely fixed the vast majority of AR’s problems…

Perceived or actual.

Oh and try out the patch for his Blaster changes…Alien E-Tech AR’s

It’s pretty sweet!

#25

I wish I could, but Im still playing on the PS3. :disappointed_relieved:

And my next plataform will likely be the PS4, anyway.
Im just trying to give my 2 cents to be honest. I thought about opening the Gaige topic, but I really think she needs little tweaks to work properly.

#26

I have 5, all in the OP levels- and all legit drops… :sunglasses:

#27

WOW!

I have never gotten one in all this time…Nada…zip.

#28

But I DID get back to back drops of the Cobra in the Beatdown one day.

My friends don’t believe me but it happened LOL, No CE or anyt kind of modding just normal game…Two OP8 TumTum Cobras one each on each of the two runs I did.

Now this was AFTER the last patch that supposedly fixed the Cobra Drop.

But still…

#29

Minor sidebar: What exactly is the crit damage penalty on AR’s again? I’m vaguely aware of the A, B and C type crits but beyond that I’m lost!

Anyone wanna do a crash course version for me? :slight_smile: (or a link to a good source!)

#30

IIRC and somebody chime in if this is not correct:

Basically AR’s are limited to 70% on a Critical Hit.

Weapons like the Hail ignore that penalty…but for the most part it apples to virtually all AR’s

Why they did this I have no clue. I guess to offset the ABILITY to get a lot of Critical Hits…

but then they also lowered many AR’s base Damage to the point it really hurts them aka Shredder

It is an unnecessary penalty plain and simple in my mind.

#31

No. ARs have 20% Type C. Which means they deal approx 85% damage on a critical hit. Which is why I feel alot of people really overstate this Type C critical hit bonus.

The Shredifier is not a great AR, but there are so many decent ones out there. Ogre, Kitten, Gatling Gun,Veruc (on loaders), Sawbar, Bekah etc.

Of all gun types, only the Shotguns really have a ton of really good options.

The problem is that Axton does not have alot of gun damage. Hence he does struggle a little using weaker weapons (as compared to say Zer0). The same would apply to all the other weapon types. By comparison, Maya basically gives a Blood Bath level boost to SMGs through her Leg Cat. Hence even the most mediocre SMG looks god-like on her.

#32

Laser Sight: If/when @shadowevil1996 finds a hook for that skill, we may be able to determine what it actually does: maybe the adjustments per point are too low; maybe it’s broken. As I think about it, I’m not sure how much high accuracy helps anyway? It’s already pretty accurate; when it misses, it’s generally because it can’t track fast enough, not so much because it shot too wide. Perhaps the bullet (without sacrificing speed or damage) could be changed into a dart, whose tracking ability/cone of visibility increases per point? That might be easier to implement in the patch?

Duty Calls: since the direction this patch seems to be taking is to make OP8 easier, how much more damage does a gun with an element get (taking all the variables into consideration like matching elements to health types) than the equivalent gun without an element? If Duty Calls buffed non elemental guns to be about on par with their elemental counterparts at +5 points, and better than them for every point thereafter, it would be worth taking for me (especially since they get the added bonus of some fire rate on top of this). I’m still not sure I’d use it, because I love spraying elements around, but still.

Overload: I agree with @johnrr6 about most assault rifles having fairly ample magazine size. If that skill was going to remain as is (AR buffs only), I’d make the magazine size buff way bigger. I mean, if I’m going to burn five points and half a COM to pursue +10 points in that skill (that’s only going to hit assault rifles), I want enough magazine size that I can pull those points out of Ready because I’m reloading rarely enough to care if it’s slow. Selfishly, I like that this skill seems useless, because so much of that upper section of the Gunpowder tree is so nice, it’s a choice I don’t need to sweat.

Ranger: I’d take a buff to Ranger; whatever @shadowevil1996 likes is fine with me. If I think the buff is too much, I can skip it or put those points elsewhere.

Phalanx: make it like Sharing is Caring :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#33

Phalanx Shield- It still saves my ass alot, but yeah, it could use acting like an actual forcefield. I’m thinking 200% so it can take some serious firepower like a shotgun blast or a single rocket.

Nuke- It’s does…OK damage before OP levels (it can kill the weakest bandits if they are slagged/unshielded), though against Hyperion enemies it still does little damage and I mostly use it knock aside ION and BUL loaders. At OP levels it really struggles to kill anything even with slag and on Hyperion enemies it does nothing, and more or less functions as a reverse singularity. Honestly, given its a capstone and all, and one that comes into play relatively inconsistently (once every turret deployment), it should do as much as a high-end rocket launcher.

Laser Sight- Honestly not sure how to save this besides a complete rehaul of the skill, which is something I would imagine would be quite complicated and is also something I’m hesitant on.

Ranger- Needs a serious buff also. Maybe 2.5%? As it is it adds virtually nothing to DPS. 2.5% is fairly large but for something that deep down the tree (Tier 5), it has to be powerful, not just slightly useful.

Crisis Management- The numbers aren’t terrible, but again this is a tier 5, and for an Axton to use a Rough Rider/Love Thumper and not have a shield is a huge durability hit (he’s so good with shields!) so it should be alot more powerful. Doubling the damage sounds fair as to be used reliably Axton has to run with RR/LT and such a setup is in no way overpowered and in fact very risky. It would still be weaker than alot of damage skills in the game at any rate.

#34

[quote=“vanaria32, post:33, topic:1557999”]Honestly, given its a capstone and all, and one that comes into play relatively inconsistently (once every turret deployment), it should do as much as a high-end rocket launcher.[/quote]I wouldn’t say no to a damage buff to Nuke, but I regularly kill things in the OP levels with it. Also, a playstyle I use when playing with Nuke specifically is to rock the most cooldown I can afford, with both Gemini and Nuke for capstones; slag the enemies manually, fire double Nukes, immediately recall, and with +10 in Resourceful, extra cooldown from a Legendary Engineer, and your favorite cooldown relic on deck, one can fire Nuke repeatedly with little delay.
For bigger enemies, Nuke and pin them into a corner and finish them off (dual Nukes makes this easy) or Nuke them off a cliff if it’s available (the second Nuke comes in handy if the target catches the weird edge detection used in the game). Got an enemy behind cover? Nuke them out from behind cover, use the second Nuke to knock them towards you (so they really can’t just scramble back), and lay into them. It’s surprisingly effective - I ran the Wildlife Exploitation Preserve with it at OP3 and had a blast.







…get it? Blast? Anyone? :laughing: :rolling_eyes:

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#35

I did some testing and on a Lvl 80 JNK loader and with slag (using an explosive relic and a Leg. Soldier) and Nuke hit for 4 million without slag, 12 million with slag, and removed about a quarter of its health. I feel a skill named after something that can level cities should be at least able to kill or maim a mere mook loader, lmao.

I imagine Nuke could be an effective weapon if one builds around the skill specifically, but a capstone should be powerful enough that one doesn’t have to build around it. Gunpowder builds which choose to go down the other way to Double-up should still be able to count on Nuke as a wave of devastation for the brief occasions it comes into play.

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#36

If nothing else, I’ve always kinda thought Nuke should do as much damage as an average at-level Nukem. I mean, sorta logical, heh. OK, that might be just a little too strong, I’ll settle for Duuurp-level!

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#37

This is for the guys who think AR’s are OK for the most part…or leave AR’s alone…or AR’s are not a big problem, or AR’s are just “misunderstood”…

I disagree…and I’m not angry or on a crusade or anything …I just think that VERY skilled players can make virtually ANYTHING work…even gear with inherent problems. And they can possibly be missing some simple logic.

It’s good to know now the exact AR penalty but does that change anything really? Not trying to be smart, just an question.

It is still a penalty…and an unnecessary one to boot IMHO…and AR’s still only hit for 85% Crit (if I understand it correctly now) and many base damages don’t even come close to pistol’s base damage. And it’s an ASSAULT RIFLE for crying out load.

Most times there is a reason why a majority does not use a certain type of gear in this game. And that reason is they are just not the best…or even close to being “good enough.”

I think AR’s are underused and and I see evidence of my same thoughts when I talk to other folks whom I play with and THEY say they are underused, and when I ask myself to sit down and count just how many AR’s do I use the list is VERY small (4) and this is after 4 years of gameplay.

So…I’m sticking with what I’m saying that AR’s, in general, are underused and the reason is they have been penalized and limited juuuuuust enough so they are not optimal types.

Else folks would use them more, it’s that simple.

In the end…if it waddles like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck and LOOKS like a duck…IT’S A DUCK! LOL

AR’s in BL2, in general…need some love. …again, IMHO

And what I like about Shadow’s patch is that he seems to be addressing a LOT of what is inherently wrong with them.

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#38

Good info…thanks! No question that there are a few AR’s that are decent. The problem is the class…as a whole is lacking…at least to me

Shadow has done some nice work on the Shredder, Seraphim, Damned Cowboy, and Veruc and has given some nice pop back to Blasters

And he has made the Bearcat actually useable!!

Biggest change is he has done an exceptional amount of work on Bandit AR’s as an entire class which is VERY welcome.

I think he plans on taking a look at the Scorpio for the future.

So I think we are definitely moving in the right direction!

#39

Considering Guerilla leans heavily towards improving the Sabre Turret I personally would rather have the turret either A) The turret receives a fire rate boost from Laser Sight or B) Increase its reaction time/turn speed to engage hostiles.

Agreed.

Some skills I would like to add.

Crisis Management: The melee damage needs to be replaced with something else with my preference being Damage Reduction, though I can see explosive or grenade damage in there as well.

Ranger: Bump it up from 1% to 2% per rank it would be useful for everyone not using a Ranger COM.

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#40

The B option. Yes. I’d be fine with the usually suggested general accuracy boost, but this makes a lot more sense and I’d certainly prefer it if it’s doable.

#41

Hell…if Laser Sight does ANYTHING that I can visibly see to help…I mean ANYTHING.

I’m all in!

I just think it would be “easier” and obtainable to just give all weps an accuracy boost.

The code already exits for Zer0’s Precision so I think it would be a simple cut and replace…

And if you look at Shadow’s patch…from what I can tell there is NO new code…he has simply found attributes and values that he has nullified or adjusted.

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