If not a level cap raise, then how should they do the additional skill points?

There is some good discussion about the pros and cons of increasing the level cap vs. just keeping the level the same and (somehow) giving us skill points.

This thread is not about level cap, but about how they dole out those skill points.

I’m asking you, assuming they decide to give us skill points to amp up our experience (without raising our level), how should they do that?

Some (probably not all) options:
*You have skill point xp (basically you level, but you get a skill point and your level number doesn’t change).
*You tie the skill points to DLC quests in a DLC main story. So, e.g. if a DLC is going to grant 5 skill points and has 5 main “acts”, you get 1 after each.
*You simply buy them (real cash for DLC, eridium, in-game cash), or they are granted for free with a patch.
*They are achievement based in some way. e.g., not tied to a quest or whatever, but tied to an achievement or a crew challenge.
*I’m sure there are more options. Let’s hear 'em.

I’m fine with earning them via experience in the traditional method of leveling up.

However, if they decided to not raise the level cap for whatever reason I would like to see Claptrap(and gang) be involved.

Similar to the Proving Grounds that we have now, players will have to complete a speed trial. Racist Hotdog, Birthday Cat and Claptrap have joined forces with Tannis to create a mischievous and deadly trial area, similar to Digistruct Peak, that Players must navigate through.

The course would become longer each time you completed(again similar to DigiPeak) and will test players combat ability as well as reflexes and intelligence by featuring puzzles, parkour, riddles, combat and much more.

Each completion rewards players with a skill point. After all trials are completed and skill points are earned the trial can be completed for a grantees class mod of the class you beat it with. The trial will feature many minibosses that also drop loot along with world drops and all else.


They shouldn’t.

Giving extra skill points unbalances the game and leads to power creep, which judging by the way they nerfed certain things they are actively avoiding this time around.

What they SHOULD do is add new trees/skills and expand Guardian rank to be more than what it is (something like a universal skill tree maybe).

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No… please no, like the original 8 and the next 10 werent bad enough, you want to put out 20 - 30 of these? Do the enemies scale like op? Theyd kinda have to, minimizing the effectiveness of our AS; pets, bear, drone…amaras melee farther into the gutter…

  • seccond thought… drone might be ok? Sorta like how deathtrap scaled… but IB would feel like at launch
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It’s normally 10 at a time.

Absolutely not. Since this whole thing is about getting skill points without leveling up they wouldn’t have to scale.

Surely it would be difficult and increasingly so, as you would be gaining skill points for the effort but not on a 1:1 leveling scale ratio.

I know DigiPeak gave a lot of folks PTSD :rofl:, I’m right there with ya but I doubt it would require actual level scaling against skill points. You wouldn’t be gaining HP or more damaging weapons.

I’m sure could do something like the Mayhem Mods do and just increase health and armor a bit but NOT damage output, damage reduction and health regen.

I had no issues with doing op levels; ive gotten kreig gaige and zero to op10 solo, my only issue in this iteration is it will introduce a sort of powercreep that will be hard to scale with the rest of the game - aswell as cutting out the “diversity of builds” that GB is trying to convey

This point is my issue, we the players having access to these extra points are able to buff our defence and offence exponentially, currently many builds are sacrificing 1 part or the other and dealing with that; if we get all of it - the games going to become extremely easier = or enemies will have to scale

Just wait till we get a “enemies fire 10 extra projectiles” and gearbox can chime in - is this mayhemy enough?

Yeah, personally I would just assume stick to traditonal leveling/skill points but the thread title is wanting to explore ideas for how we would receive skill points if we didn’t level up.

That’s the whole reason for my suggestion. Something fun and challenging.

I’m fine with the way it has been though really. I personally like more skill points.

Also, I won’t say I had no issues as parts of the peak can be challenging but I got all characters to op8 solo but just took my Axton and Krieg to Op10 because, screw that noise.

I’d like to see it tied to a challenge, honestly. Like how OP levels in BL2 technically awarded you access to better OP gear. Like solo each Takedown/Trial-esqe/Slaughtershaft-esque at certain Mayhem levels to get a certain number of skillpoints. For example, solo M5 Maliwan Takedown for 2 skillpoints, then at Mayhem 10 or something, award another two. If we get like 5 Takedowns, then that’s 20 extra skillpoints by the end. Make the points available for the scaled-players solo (so it can be available to more casual gamers but with still a level of challenge), then the true challenge will be the “True Takedown” mode. That’s like being level 70, but earned from a challenge instead. Have each Takedown be increasingly more difficult, so those points, even small, can make some difference but will mainly based on player skill. I mean, leveling will be a piece of cake.

We get only double XP at M4, but enemies have 8.5-28.5 times more health. Might as well farm levels with no mayhem, and wipe the floor with level 70 mobs with level 50 gear. I don’t see how level cap to 70 or something will increase their HP by 8.5-28.5 (and we still insta-delete them) times more health no-mayhem. Then it just becomes re-farming gear to increase Mayhem once cap is reached. Then, at perfect gear we’ll wipe them just as fast, even faster with more skill-points, as lvl 50 mobs at level 50. Game will be easier overall. What’s missing; is a well-designed challenge to the meta.

I know Borderlands is all about farming constantly. I’m cool with that. Love to have better drop rates, annointment rates, and upgrading gear. But I’d much rather see challenge be the focal-point for end-game players, and be awarded as such.


Any suggestions how to make this kind of challenge?

How to challenge players and make it rewarding without giving more powerful tools to the player (keep the gap)? How do you make repeatable challenge that is not to tightly connected to gear?

I remember playing Counter Strike (1.6, Source or GO) with bots, trying new maps, gears sets, bot distributions - challenge was it’s own reward without any loot or whatever.

How do you bring that to looter-shooter? More rogue-lite influence? More various enemy and enemy group types? Leaderboards? Random modifiers… oh, wait.

How do you deal with people who perceive the same challenge differently? Some will always be pissd off - “too easy”, “too hard”. Someone will even complain about difficulty even if it is optional, because they want platinum the damn thing or want to feel good about themselves w/o learning the game. Git gud?

You can’t win them all, I guess…

Absolutely agree. More trees with less skillpoints overall makes more and better build variance. Skill points are huge increases to power, thus less of them should be offered and barred behind challenge milestones (IMO).

Increasing level cap kinda negates Guardian Rank in general IMO. XP should be tied from now on to Guardian Rank, exclusively. They just need to expand upon it, and the universal trees is a fantastic option. Maybe make trees for guardian rank. A defence/offense/support ones. Need more defense? Invest in the defense. More offense? Then offense. Make milestone goals to invest into them, but don’t make them all equipable. Make the current ones all equipable, and the new ones afterwards be selective. Keep the small increases to various stats to not make large guardian rank super-noticable, but still rewarding for playing more.

Skill points = less of them, larger power increases, extra’s barred behind challenges, awarded for player skill.
XP = Exclusive to guardian rank after cap, small increases to overall power, always available, based on time played.

Not sure, but Maliwan Takedown was a good start. Mayhem levels too, and gear beyond those Mayhem levels. Even slaughtershaft was a larger challenge than base-game. Slaughtershaft was the last meta, and now is over-shadowed by the Takedown. It’s possible, it just depends on how Gearbox designs it which is where they’ll need to prove their creativity. Look at Souls-Borne series. Totally different game, but they have gear, levels, loot, even damage numbers, but pushed out continuous challenge for the players through the DLC with the areas and boss design. After a certain point, levels didn’t really matter in those games and skill mattered more. Who knows if that could be the case in BL3.

I think any game has players like these. Can’t win them all, but if you can win the general masses, you can be successful in implementation. Hate to use the Souls-Borne series as an example twice, but there was “git-gud” players there too, however the general masses made those games popular because they were in general: challenging. With BL3, I think even “git-gud” players were satisfied with the challenge Maliwan Takedown and Slaughtershaft provided them. There will always be an upper-limit to player skill that any player will reach and say “this is too easy”, so it’s all about designing a journey to get there as content. Short journey will leave people unsatisfied, and a long journey will leave people feeling accomplished.

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What if they add about 6 or 9 new skills to wach VH? A new line with 2 5/5 skills. So with this you still could not go in two skilltrees down.

So break our current synergy without a point increase? I cant see this being done; maybe fill in the current blanks as each vh has a number of them…

No im taking about getting 5 skills points and extra skills in the tree. So you have more points, but still cant go completely down in two trees. The last skill is mostly really powerfull and with my idea you still could not have two.

I’m still voting for the level cap raise, and keeping everything it is. If there will be no level cap raise, make those Guardian Rank points worth more. Like not awarding 0.04% on stats, make it like 1 or 2% or even more. If I remember correctly, you could just reset your challenges and earn more Badass Tokens in BL2 and you could upgrade your stats to 500% but that’s a pain in the a**. I think it was 62000 of tokens (= doing challenges 62000 times) to reach that. And that’s a lot of grinding. Specially when you get a challenge where you need to kill some thousands of mobs, because the bigger the tier of the challenge, it means more points for upgrade. At least you just need to “level up” in BL3 to earn Guardian Ranks. Buying them could be also an option, but NOT for real cash. In this case GBX should make a good balance. I know you can farm millions of dollars easily in this game, but still… it shouldn’t be millions. Sometimes you die, sometimes you respec, and those have (bitter) prices too. By tieing them to missions, I think it wouldn’t be enough to upgrade your stats. Maybe if they include the arenas and proving grounds. Then it might work, but that’s just a lot of “skill point farming” too.
And you need to mention the gear too in case of a level cap raise. I’m sure this can be sorted out. Like with a machine upgrading your weapons. Allowing only to upgrade it to your level, not further more (without changing anointments, or maybe include it that too, to spend our well earned virtual multi- and mega billions of currency we own, but that’s a different post) until you level up for the next upgrade. I have hundreds of millions of cash and 20K of Eridium, which I can not spend. Maybe by dying a lot of times :smiley: letting the guns level up with you would mean only the 4 guns you can equip I think, which is… a bit not enough vs. the ~250 legendary items that exist in the game. I’m not sure how they could level up other ways than being equipped. Like I don’t touch them until I level up to 60 and I just take them out from the bank at level 60 suddenly? :smiley: not to speak about the artifacts and shields.

I don’t see an issue on how it’s been done previously. Enemies scale with level increase.

I find now I can’t really do the builds I want. The trees all some skill you just have to have. That means there’s always a compromise.

As far as power creep goes, it’s already here. It’s called farming. People are melting Wotan on MH 4. Yes that takes a lot of skill. It also takes a lot of farming. Patient people will have much more powerful builds. That’s not a criticism. I myself have noticed how much more powerful my Moze has become just by finding the right gear. A shock Cutsman can melt Wotan shields in less that a minute. Prior I used a COV shock pistol, much slower. And I’m sure if I had a corrosive Cutsman I would be done with Wotan. I’m close, but not yet.

So, I can farm for the corrosive cutsman. Very time consuming, and boring. I would rather keep doing proving grounds and level up. Even two more points would drastically help. Even if Wotan scales. It becomes an arms race. And if you set up your skills properly you will win the arms race. For example. If I could have two more points in Scorched RMPs and keep points in Drowning in Brass. Getting to Wotan is easier with kill skills. But when it’s down to just you and Wotan, kill skills aren’t as useful as raw damage and tankiness.

I currently see Guardian Ranks as sort of leveling up. Especially with the perks. That is some motivation.

Regardless, it’s a fun game, and if they didn’t change anything I would be fine with it. Well, except the bugs. FIX THE BUGS.

If the Cutsman wasn’t just an example you were using, and you really don’t have a corrosive one, than I can send you one or two if you’re playing on PC. It’s not a “God anointed” one, but at least you’ll have something to begin with. I remember how much it helped me when somebody sent it to me, when I didn’t had one. Leave a PM if you need it, and I will send it.

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Appreciate the offer, I’m on PS 4 however.

“I’m sorry” * to hear that. So next to fixing the bugs, and I know it’s coming, we need the crossplay too ! I want to send @sportster a corrosive Cutsman ! If I can give you an advice, I say to open the DAHL toilet on the platform. Out of the 4 Cutsman (not counting the 2 I use) I got it from there.

*meaning, there’s no crossplay.

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Tie up the extra skill points from challenges, side quests, and story. The idea is no different with being able to use a com after Gigamind and artifacts after Graveward, except this time it forces you to complete the other things other than the main story line.