Improvements to Shield of Retribution Tree and Other Skills

The tldr; I’ve proposed some improvements (or what count as improvements in my own opinion) to the SoR tree and some skills in DW tree. I know this has been done many times before, but 1) this was fun to do and 2) I tried to build on the SoR’s theme of trading maluses for bonuses. (Note that I’m interested in mechanics, so I don’t always include values).


Selfless Vengeance
Change -> Whenever Moze or Iron Bear take damage, Moze and her allies deal bonus incendiary damage for a few seconds.
A lot of builds go for Experimental Munitions and Drowning in Brass. Armored Infantry is usually always picked, even if in practice a lot of those builds won’t have or need an active shield. Reloading is also anti-syngeristic with several class mod abilities and skills.

Security Bear
No change

Armored Infantry
Add -> If Iron Bear is on cooldown, Moze gains a 15% chance to reflect projectiles when her shields are active.
Given the change to Selfless Vengeance proposed above, increasing AI’s defensive bonuses will make it more appealing to SoR builds.

Drowning in Brass
No Change

Thin Red Line
Change -> 3 point maximum to 5 five point maximum.
I think the values per point should stay the same. Having the option to to use skill points removes the need for Moze to reach 1hp by using either a Deathless artifact or Front Loader shield.

Vladof Igenuity
Change -> Shield Recharge Rate to Chance to drop Shield Boosters.

Full Can of Whoop-Ass
Change -> On ASA, Iron Bear loses fuel efficiency in exchange for increased damage.
On ASE, Moze has a decreased cooldown reduction rate, but gains increased kill skill effectiveness and duration when Iron Bear is on cooldown.
The idea here is to make Iron Bear less efficient but more damaging so that it is easier
to power Moze up. Iron Bear’s extra damage can be used to quickly gain some stacks. Increasing the duration of Drowning in Brass and Phalanx Doctrine makes it less likely that Moze’s damage dips horribly by losing her stacks if her damage depends on these stacks.

Experimental Munitions
No Change

Behind the Iron Curtain
Change -> On ASA, current Full Can of Whoop-Ass effect.
On ASE, Moze has a decreased cooldown rate but increases effectiveness of Armored Infantry, Thin Red Line, Vladof Ingenuity and Tenacious Defense when Iron Bear is on cooldown.
In practice, shield recharge rate and delay have not done anything for Moze. Big Boom Blaster, Transformer and Bloodletter with Run N’ Gun have made this skill largely redundant.

Desperate Measures
Add -> On ASE, Moze has a decreased cooldown rate but adds a crit damage bonus to Desperate Measures when Iron Bear is on cooldown.
This makes DM more appealing to non-1HP builds and makes losing health-gate more rewarding.

Phalanx Doctrine
No Change

Force Feedback
Moze’s weapons and grenades restore Moze’s shields when they deal damage to shields.
In practice, this skill has failed to do anything for Moze. Moze’s elemental bonuses,
grenades and Short Fuse make the condition too clunky to be a reliable way to restore shields, and Moze has had much more efficient ways to go about restoring shields. A powerful shield drain effect is still conditional (depending on enemy type) and reduces
the importance of the current ways of restoring shields.

Tenacious Defence
Whenever Moze’s shields are fully depleted, she increases the effectiveness of all her Shield of Retribution skills for 60s (except BtIC).
Having another powerful capstone should increase Moze’s build diversity, by improving builds that don’t take Short Fuse.

=== Demoliton Woman ===

Why Can’t I Carry All These Grenades
Change -> When Moze regains a grenade, she gains 30% increased grenade damage for 5s. When Moze crits with a grenade, her grenades deal 30% bonus incendiary damage for 5 seconds. When Moze kills an enemy with a grenade, that enemy drops a copy of her grenade.
This skill is pointless in its current state because MoD is so efficient that Moze doesn’t care about grenade capacity. Grenades also struggle to contribute damage and though Moze has splash damage bonuses, she has no bonuses to grenade damage other than PtHP.

Explosive Punctation
Change -> Moze’s splash damage radius grants an increase to splash damage.
Moze has many ways to getting cooldown reduction for Iron Bear (including the Guardian Rank skill Topped Off). Correlating damage to splash damage radius creates synergy between TCP and weapons that have a high splash damage radius but don’t do a lot of damage on Moze.


I don’t understand why people say Selfless Vengence is anti synergy. You don’t even need to complete a reload to activate it. You can just melee cancel the animation and get the buff that way. Honestly it just needs to give you more damage. Maybe make it scale with mayhem too.

  • Any sort of reload, whether its cancelled or not, takes away the splash bonus of blastmaster (and green monster)
  • it acts the same as n2m anointments; which mostly dont help moze for damage since these dont take on splash boosts etc

Then don’t use Blastmaster or Green Monster. It just needs a damage buff and it’ll be better for gun damage builds.

A buff sure, but not to the extent our other skills are scaled to; at no point should a tier 1 skill do 10 times more damage than our weapons

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I said it’s anti-synergistic with some things, not in general, and I don’t think that’s untrue.
Note that Moze has no skills that boost reload speed, and melee-cancelling the animation every five seconds still takes time that could be used to keep shooting.

It lasts 10 seconds with 5 points. And again, just use a build/class mod that doesn’t revolve around not reloading. Moze has 10 different class mods and only 3 of them revolve around not reloading/constant shooting. I use a bloodletter/deathless build were I take advantage of click click with spare points into selfless vengence, so I can always just cancel the reload anytime my mag hits 0. The damage increase it gives is noticable but no where near Big Surplus, which is why it just needs a damage buff.

I know how to make use of it; that’s not the issue here. I think you overstate the case when you refer to the class mods. Sapper, Green Monster and Blast Master don’t want to reload. Raging Bear and Bear Trooper are pilot coms (or have been used that way). Mind Sweeper has Redistribution, Flare has Means of Destruction and Cloud of Lead, Rocketeer has Cloud of Lead, etc. The only two (iirc) that have nothing that doesn’t contribute to infinite ammo are Bloodletter and Flame.

And buffing SV’s damage would defeat one of the points of this thread, imo, which is to discuss ideas to improve Moze’s damage without having to buff Tier 1 skills.

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SV vengeance could last 30 seconds for what its worth, its contribution is miserable compared to the likes of skag den and big surplus anyway. Is the uRad situation all over. A bonus element that is but a drop in a puddle of bonus damage that are 8 points in two T1 skills.
A buff to SV what would be? After skag den, but in purple we would have skag den, but in orange? That’s not gonna improve anything.

Skills like Redistribution, Means of Detruction, Cloud of Lead, and Forge, benefit builds that use Click Click just as much as infinite ammo builds. Any build that uses Click Click will be managing their mag to be as low as possible, eventually the mag will hit 0 and therefore, Selfless Vengence, in theory, would come in handy for extra damage. And being able to cancel the reload and still get the buff means you’ll never have to worry about reseting Click Click mid fight.

Simply making Selfless Vengence compatible with never reload builds won’t make it any less of a throw away skill for spare points when the main issue is the damage it gives in comparision to skills like Fire in the Skag Den and Big Surplus, which ultimately serve the same purpose, bonus fire damage. Giving the skill mayhem scaling is the simplest solution(could also buff the duration). Either way, it still shouldn’t be just as strong since the main difference between Selfless Venegnce and other bonus fire skills is that it benefits everybody. So any buff the skill gets should take into account that it’s at its best with 4 players,

I don’t agree with the simplest solution. Even if you’re interested in maintaining the Click, Click… bonus, why can’t Click, Click… be buffed instead - by receiving Mayhem scaling and/or having its place changed in the damage formula?
Mayhem scaling on SV would empower meta non-Blast Master builds who take FitSD, SF and Big Surplus. They’d shift the points from Armored Infantry to SV and become more overpowered than they are.
The skills producing real damage should require more point investment in a particular tree, imo, not tier 1 skills. Even if SV didn’t contribute a lot of damage, it would still be proccing Moze’s fire-syngergy skills and producing additional projectiles for teammates that relied on that strategy.

Because Click Click doesn’t need a buff. Its already been buffed (used to give 36% gun damage at max). If you have a problem with tier 1 skills getting mayhem scaling then the real issue is mayhem 2.0 itself. Back in mayhem 1.0 15% bonus fire damage was actually meaningful. There’s virtually nothing that can be done to improve Selfless Vengence without buffing the damage (mayhem scaling or flat increase). Either way it should give more damage than Experimental Munitions because it requires more point investment. Functionally speaking, it’s fine the way it is. It doesn’t need to be changed to synergize with never reload builds.