In order to do the most damage is Hellborn/Bloodlust, is Pain is Power Necessary?

Hey guys,

so I want to do the most dps while on fire using any guns, or be able to hit absurd overkill damage to chain bloodsplosions, is pain is power worth it? Does speccing into pain is power mean i shouldn’t be going for crits or does crits still do more damage?


Critical hits still do more damage than body shots.

You can’t really reliably do this at OP8 without “grenades” or melee, so with the build you probably have, PiP shouldn’t have much or any of an effect.

The problem with PiP is, it gets worse the more additive gun damage you have (when scoring critical hits). So with a 100 damage gun you do…

  • Base
    • Body shot damage: 100
    • Crit damage: 100x(2x(1)) = 200
  • PiP 5/5 (on fire)
    • Body: 100x(1+0.5) = 150
    • Crit: 100x(1+0.5)x(2/(1+0.25)) = 240

But say we add Blood Bath at 5/5 (100 stacks), now it looks like this…

  • Body: 100x(1+0.5+2.5) = 400
  • Crit: 100x(1+0.5+2.5)x(2/(1+0.25)) = 640

But if we get rid of PiP, then it’s…

  • Body: 100x(1+2.5) = 350
  • Crit: 100x(1+2.5)x(2x(1)) = 700

So you do less body shot damage, but you deal more critical damage. Meaning you have the potential to do more damage overall. With a Reaper com the difference is even more glaring.


Appreciate the calculation, so it does really depend, so if im going for pure dps with say the interfacers/conference calls on bigger enemies, PIP is good? Does PIP boost baby maker or bonus launcher damage at all?

Hellborn/Bloodlust means the brunt of your damage is coming from Bloodbath, which means unless you are using a FoTF (and even then…) you will want to use weapons which can activate the skill.

It depends on what gun you are using. Generally speaking it is a good skill as the majority of guns that a H/B Krieg shines with (mostly those that proc Bloodbath) have splash damage (which can’t crit), suck at critting to begin with or flat out don’t crit. Think the Omen, Blockhead, Twister, Harold, Kerblaster, rocket launchers etc, to a lesser extent Hornet, Ogre, Hellfire…PiP offers a substantial DPS bonus when you don’t have Bloodbath.

For raid fights like Terra/Craw you should spec out of it. If you are running FotF you can go either way.

When I run Interfacer/CC I’m usually running Hellborn/Mania with a Chaotic Evil Barbarian com, and for thag setup I avoid PiP as it nerfs my crits


This right here.

I think up to 7/5 Pain is Power, you will still see a net increase in Critical Hit damage before the Type C factor really starts to hurt more than help.

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Their reloads? No.

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Oh so even when I use the harold and it shows critical it doesn’t crit :thinking:? Interesting. I played mania/bloodlust back on 360 up till op3 where my other characters boosted me to op8. Now on pc I’m trying to make the perfect save. I already have a lieu of splash weapon, but I also have weapons like the interfacer or bullet type weapons that dont proc bb but then I use a fastball to proc it. I always spec into bb and pip before but this time I’m thinking of saving points.

@BookEmDano 7/5 pip is the threshold to where you see damage increase both to body and critical right ?

@khimerakiller I am wondering if base damage of a weapon and its increase does effect damage when thrown?

I appreciate your responses, I’ve never gone in depth into this game, just enjoyed it for what it was, well till uvhm and op levels kicked my ass :eyes::rofl:

It does, but the secondary set of damage each projectile has doesn’t. We call it “splash damage”, and it’s basically a mini explosion in addition to the bullet that can crit.

Where as a rocket launcher fires out a projectile that only has splash damage, meaning it can never crit most enemies.

The base damage of the weapon does increase its throw reload damage. So if you have a Baby Maker with the damage accessory, then its throw reloads will deal more damage.

But “additive gun damage” from outside sources such as PiP, Blood Bath, Salt the Wound, etc… will never increase the damage a Tediore throw reload does.

The only exception is the Avenger, who’s throw reload does benefit from outside additive gun damage boost like the Bee, PiP, etc…

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Alright thanks. So is putting like 7/5 in pip a bad idea for overall damage increase from body and crit if using bb?

Also which is better the damage increase or refill baby maker ?

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Correct. Any higher and your body shots will outdamage your crit shots. But if you’re using weapons with splash damage, it’s worth it as splash damage rarely crits.

I run Omens, Hellfire, Harold, Hornet, and Butcher on Krieg with Toast mod and it’s scary how fast he will bring down badasses with PiP as only source of bonus gun damage.


Personally I use the Reaper com, so I never spec into PiP. The bonuses it gives are too little, and the negative it has is too big in that scenario.

Depends on what you’re using it for, but really it just comes down to personal preference. There isn’t much difference between the 2.

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Got it makes sense, reaper doesn’t boost pip, like for example if I’m using torch I can use pip. I think I get it now

@khimerakiller @BookEmDano

So if I have 5/5 BB and fotfh kills an enemy does having 7/5 pip overall boost my damage for splash and crit damage for guns like cc/interfacer, etc?

Is it worth investing the points in this scenario? Otherwise I’ll have to respec for legendary reaper for bosses, or for legendary sickle for bloodsplosions, and normally run legendary com at boost pip for mobbing ? Respec gets annoying :rofl::rofl:

Those weapons don’t have splash damage so they benefit less than say an Omen or Harold. But they are still going to benefit from PiP as long as you are on fire and have the gun damage bonus.

Sorry I meant to say “for splash damage guns and non-splash like bullets ?”


Is there a reason you don’t use the Reaper for mobbing? That way you wouldn’t need to respec, and I think it’s the superior com anyway. The legendary psycho is only good for Javelineer Krieg IMO.

And you have to respec for Melee anyway, b/c you need to spec into the mania tree. Of which PiP is absolutely atrocious for high level melee play.


No there is no specific reason, should I always use reaper? I’m just trying to balance a build out between bullet and splash damage guns. So I shouldn’t waste points into pip?

What I’m trying to get at is with bar off, does having bloodbath running and having pip boost crit damage with kitten/hail/cc/interfacer/butcher/etc? Do I lose dps with splash weapons as well then or am I getting an overall increase?


I encourage people to try stuff out first and then form their own opinion. But personally if I can activate my kill skills, I never use anything besides the Reaper on my gun based Krieg.

Just so we’re clear, PiP doesn’t boost critical damage, it takes it away.

But if you mean “are critical hits still worth it with PiP” then yes. No amount of PiP will cause critical hits to deal less damage then a body shot.

Here is the equation with a Reaper com and 10/5 Blood Bath.

  • Body: 100x(1+0.5+5) = 650
  • Crit: 100x(1+0.5+5)x(2/(1+0.25)) = 1040

But if we get rid of PiP, then it’s…

  • Body: 100x(1+5) = 600
  • Crit: 100x(1+5)x(2x(1)) = 1200

So with PiP you gain 8.3% body shot damage with this set up, but lose 15.4% crit damage.

With a Torgue pistol with 100% splash, here is the equation.

  • Body: (100x(1+0.5+5))+(100x(1+0.5+5)) = 1300
  • Crit: (100x(1+0.5+5)x(2/(1+0.25)))+(100x(1+0.5+5)) = 1690

But if we get rid of PiP, then it’s…

  • Body: (100x(1+5))+(100x(1+5)) = 1200
  • Crit: (100x(1+5)x(2x(1)))+(100x(1+5)) = 1800

So with PiP you gain 8.3% body shot damage with this set up, but lose 6.5% crit damage.

Oh thanks for the calculation. Not much damage gain really. I guess I can either go without it or out maybe 2 or 3 points into it.

It would still depend on your gun and setup. Are you using a Firehawk or a Rough Rider (the former basically procs Bloodbath for you, the latter you have to rely on your guns)? What kinds of guns are you using? What is your grenade (Fastball can reliably proc BB for you, but AoE grenades have better crowd control). Bloodbath is a killskill, so you won’t have it all the time depending on the map.The Reaper w/o PiP + Bloodbath gives the potentially highest gun dps of any Krieg setup, but in absence of Bloodbath it has the worst, which depending on map and setup can happen quite abit.

If you are using FoTF, don’t bother with PiP, you can use any gun you want and the firehawk gives you enough DPS when you don’t have your killbuffs. If you are using a Rough Rider, just spec into it, you will be using guns that interact well with PiP to begin with (like the Omen/Harold/Carnage). While in theory PiP should cause a substantial loss in DPS in practice there’a basically no difference if you are using guns that proc BB and you sort of need it for those maps where there are periods where you won’t have BB.