Is Handsome Jack really a bad guy or did the effects of everything twist him?

Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel BL: TPS Gameplay Discussion (Spoilers!)
#30

Okay, I’ll give you that we really don’t know what happened to Angel’s mom. However, Jack’s justification for locking up Angel in a box is for “what she did to her mother.” So, according to Jack, Angel did something to her mom, and then Jack put Angel onto her new throne inside her little box as a consequence. He says this just before the BL2 Vault Hunters reach the Information Stockade.

Now in that side mission, Get to Know Jack, there are two specific ECHOs that should be considered when Jack does say this to the Vault Hunters. One is when we learn of Jack putting a very young Angel into a possible early version of Control Core Angel, with Angel pleading to see her mom, but Jack replies that “She’s not coming back.”

The second ECHO is the one you cited above, where one of the techs mentions Jack’s wife (presumingly also Angel’s mom). At this point, Jack has already gained significant influence and power within Hyperion, to the point that he has VP Jeffrey Blake answering to him and that he already has the (Control Core) Angel project in progress, if not necessarily completed.

We now take these three separate accounts and find that they are not consistent with each other. You can take any two, and there wouldn’t be a discrepancy. But once the third account is considered, there is an inconsistency in the order of events.

Now, if we take the two ECHOs at face value, then that leaves Jack’s own words into question. We don’t know if Angel ever did anything to her mom. HOWEVER, Jack did not put Angel into a box using whatever Angel did to her mother as the justification. He uses this lie to illicit some sort of false sympathy and justification for his actions once the Vault Hunters learn of Angel’s ordeal.

Later on, it seems that Angel’s mother has tried to do something about the “Angel” project (though we can assume she wanted to free her daughter from Jack’s machinations, there is no evidence to support that was her intent, or even if Angel’s mother knew that Angel was at the center of the Control Core Angel. Then she disappears. Jack doesn’t talk about it. He doesn’t want anyone to mention it. That is a red-button issue for him, so much so that he will go on tilt if his wife is ever mentioned or referenced. Knowing Jack’s propensity for lying and scheming, we could safely assume that he was probably lying about Angel’s mother as well. At the very least, Angel’s mother seems to represent something that Jack wants to keep buried and forgotten. It may not necessarily have anything to do with Angel herself, but I think it’ a pretty good bet that it is.

#31

Using this logic, why take anything from the story at face value? Athena is about to die, so she’ll say anything at that point, which means pre-sequel never happened (Obviously this is wrong becuase there are at least two living people to ‘confirm’ the major events of the pre-sequel, being Moxxi and Lilith). Everything that happened in Borderlands 1 and 2 was told by Marcus to an orphan, and he’s not really a reliable person. Who knows if any of this happened in borderlands lore. Marcus is actually just a homeless person on earth talking to a dead cat and Pandora isn’t a thing.

With that insanity being said, you can’t really just brush off the little back-story dialogue we have and say “well obviously he was lying because he’s a villain”. I say jack was always a jerk-bag, at least well before the events of borderlands 1, but having two ECHOs mentioning angel and her mother having some kind of deal when there’s basically zero ECHOs with any back-story info to begin with, should be reason enough to assume jack’s back-story involved some sort of negative interaction with angel and her mother. Whether it was Jack killing her for questioning what he was doing with Angel (This is unlikely because it seems that the mother disappeared BEFORE Angel was forced to sit in the chair, we know this because she’s introduced to her special chair in the same ECHO where Angel asks Jack where mommy is. The more likely scenario would involve Jack suggesting using Angel to her, as she seemed to also be involved in Hyperion in some way as Moorin suggested, the mother obviously refusing, and Jack killing her), or Angel somehow killing her mother by accident as Jack ignored his wife’s warning and tried to make Angel do some siren things. As you said, we don’t necessarily know the details, and probably never will. I, however, believe Jacks true douchening happened around the time of angels birth or at least when her siren power became noticeable, which could have happened when Jack’s wife/Angel’s mother died.

#32

No, you are not using “this logic.” You are simply refuting my statement by applying a blanket “everyone could be lying” explanation. As much as that explanation is still probable, it is very doubtful (and very unsatisfying) that is truly the case.

I’m not brushing off Jack’s word simply because he is a liar. If you paid attention, I cited three accounts, two of which are ECHOs and one of which is what Jack explicitly says. All of them are related to Angel and her imprisonment. One ECHO clearly indicates that Angel was placed on her “new throne” and into a box when she was but a young girl, a time when Jack still had no significant influence in Hyperion. The other ECHO describes an instance where Jack strangles an employee for mentioning his wife during a time when he did have significant influence in Hyperion, a time between TPS and BL2. There is a contradiction when certain events occur when we also consider Jack’s testimony, which hasn’t always been credible.

but having two ECHOs mentioning angel and her mother having some kind of deal when there’s basically zero ECHOs with any back-story info to begin with, should be reason enough to assume jack’s back-story involved some sort of negative interaction with angel and her mother

No, there is a jump in logic there. We already know there’s a pretty bad relationship between Angel and Jack. Yet, there is nothing that even hints at the relationship between Jack and his wife/Angel’s mom (assuming they are the same person). All that is revealed so far is that Jack does not want any mention of his wife made at all, to the point where he would commit homicide. What would cause him to act in that way is still unclear, whether he had a good relationship with the wife or a bad relationship with the wife.

Whether it was Jack killing her for questioning what he was doing with Angel (This is unlikely because it seems that the mother disappeared BEFORE Angel was forced to sit in the chair, we know this because she’s introduced to her special chair in the same ECHO where Angel asks Jack where mommy is

Again, a jump in logic. That particular ECHO only reveals that Jack isolated Angel to the point where he was unwilling to allow Angel to see her mommy. It doesn’t say anything at all if she actually disappeared for good or not.

The other aforementioned ECHO shows an employee referencing Jack’s wife well after Angel’s initial imprisonment, during the time between TPS and BL2. Jack’s wife/Angel’s mother would have logically “disappeared” some time AFTER Angel’s imprisonment, not before.

Again, we cannot cite facts not made evident. We can list what we know, and then list what we don’t know, and then infer from that body of knowledge any other possible speculations, which could easily be changed once more information comes down the line.

#33

It’s been a while since I have heard those echoes but just because someone mentions something about Jack’s wife doesn’t mean she wasn’t already dead way before this. The employee might not have known or was referencing something from the past. This echo doesn’t rule out that Angel killed her mother, with some of Jack’s actions toward Angel, being over-protective and all even though he is using her in the core project, maybe his wife’s death wasn’t made public in a means to protect Angel. There is too much missing information in regards to this but what I assume happened is Angel killed her mother on accident at a very young age, Jack probably loved both his wife and daughter very much and covered this up and imprisoned Angel to try to protect her in his eyes. This is similar to Dumbledore’s sister in Harry Potter where they hide the fact that she has uncontrollable magic to protect her and it ends up in the death of their mother and eventually her. If this is the case that could be why his wife is a hot button issue to him.

#34

Maybe she was prevented from seeing it by the guardians somehow. When it comes to that whole elseer part I have a theory. In Borderlands 1 the guardians are attacking everyone on site but in TPS they don’t attack Lilith in the moons vault, there is also mention of the guardians being robots in the Holodome. it is possible that they have linked memories and recognize her as one of the people who destroyed the destroyer and see her as someone who could help them defend the vault or destroy the secrets inside. It is also possible that she was focusing on her objective and didn’t even take notice of the sky above her, with the thought of stopping Jack on her mind she probably didn’t have the time.

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#35

I’m just using the quote from the ECHO where Jack angrily tells angel , “[Mommy’s] not coming back” before telling her to “Get in the freaking chair”. Given the switch he pulls from kindly introducing Angel to her throne to angrily forcing her in the chair the second Angel mentions mommy. I feel that it is logically safe, or at least plausible, that “mommy”, whether that be some irrelevant mother that Jack took Angel from or his wife at the time, would be “gone” at that point.

However, nothing is saying that these two people, Angel’s mother and Jack’s Wife (who also has some influence at Hyperion given that engineers are valuing her recommendations), are the same person. Given the timings where Jack was a ‘code monkey’ by the start of BL1 (he could very well have the same influence that he had at pre-sequel at this time because Tassiter seems to show the same level of respect towards him at both instances), and probably had significant influence by about the time of the of Robolution, as this is where Hyperion was shown to be on a downturn, I’m less inclined to believe that Angel’s mother and Jack’s wife are the same person.

Also since the final Jack ECHO happened at the end of Pre-Sequel, with the Moorin conversation logically happening some time before that, the Moorin conversation would have likely happened either during of before the events of the pre-sequel,

However, as far as speculation goes, The Moorin echo doesn’t definitively say that the Angel project was started before the wife disappeared, as what Moorin said about the wife only indicates that the wife suggested that Angel was too dangerous before the time where she disappeared, which obviously could’ve happened at any time.

At the end of the day, we’re speculating potential back-story from about half a page of dialogue. Given that we basically have nothing to work with, there are about a billion timelines that can still follow the structure set by the ECHOs and fit in the realm of possibility.

#36

Again, you are using faulty logic.

I feel that it is logically safe, or at least plausible, that “mommy”,
whether that be some irrelevant mother that Jack took Angel from or his
wife at the time, would be “gone” at that point.

It is plausible, but not logically safe. Again, that is assuming facts that have not been made evident. If we consider that same ECHO only, then the fate of Angel’s mom is a toss up, open to speculation.

However, in the other ECHO, we have Moorin mentioning Jack’s wife at a time when Jack already has significant influence in Hyperion. Jack’s influence is established by the fact that Mister Blake, a VP of the company, is answering to him. This could only have happened between TPS and BL2. Prior to then, Jack had no real power to commit murder of an employee and easily get away with it. Jack did have some influence during TPS, due to his “Pandora hunch” that seemingly impressed the Board of Directors. Mind you, Tassiter never really trusted Jack nor given him any sense of respect. Tassiter is only overruled when the BoD do so, and even then Tassiter is reluctant to comply.

By having established when that ECHO took place, it would seem pretty improbable that a tech at that time would mention Jack’s wife if she supposedly disappeared before Angel was locked up, which would have been years before that time.

That assumes that Jack’s wife and Angel’s mother are one and the same. Personally, I tend to use Occam’s Razor when considering too many speculations. To my knowledge, no one outside of this thread has even considered that Angel’s mom and Jack’s wife could be two different people. I only bring it up because I wanted to be complete in my reasoning, and acknowledging a possible, though unlikely, scenario had done that.

Now of course, if we consider this idea that Angel’s mom and Jack’s wife are two different people, then that opens a whole new realm of possibilities. In that sense, there are two large unknowns that would further complicate any theories that have been discussed so far. And from there, everything would be mere speculation, anything would be plausible, but nothing would be rendered “logically safe.”

(he could very well have the same influence that he had at pre-sequel
at this time because Tassiter seems to show the same level of respect
towards him at both instances),

Tassiter never showed any kind of respect toward Jack. Anything that follows the above premise is pretty much nil.

Also since the final Jack ECHO happened at the end of Pre-Sequel, with the Moorin conversation logically happening some time before that, the Moorin conversation would have likely happened either during of before the events of the pre-sequel,

No, the Moorin conversation would not have happened before or during TPS. The “final Jack ECHO” happened after TPS, not just at the end. Yes, we do witness the scene where Jack strangles Tassiter, however, it is never implied exactly how longer after TPS it takes place. Jack would have needed to fix his face, “encourage” the other directors into giving up their shares, and make sure his takeover of Hyperion extended way beyond the Helios space station.

However, as far as speculation goes, The Moorin echo doesn’t
definitively say that the Angel project was started before the wife
disappeared, as what Moorin said about the wife only indicates that the
wife suggested that Angel was too dangerous before the time where she
disappeared, which obviously could’ve happened at any time.

True, but if the wife/mother disappeared 10-15 years ago, then it would definitely be a suspension of belief that Moorin would recall an event thaat far back.

At the end of the day, we’re speculating potential back-story from about
half a page of dialogue. Given that we basically have nothing to work
with, there are about a billion timelines that can still follow the
structure set by the ECHOs and fit in the realm of possibility.

You may be speculating, but I am still using reason to route out fallacies and Jack’s lies that some have already taken to be a fact. Adding more speculative ideas is fun and all, but it does little when trying to think critically and reason logically.

#37

It doesn’t rule out that Angel killed her mother, but it also doesn’t rule out that Angel didn’t kill her mother.

Again, the only instance where Angel supposedly brought harm to her mother is when Jack says so, after Angel has died and Lilith is captured. According to Angel herself, before she died, Jack will use lies, guilt, sympathy, anything to manipulate other people. Jack’s credibility was always in question, even more so during BL2.

but what I assume happened is Angel killed her mother on accident at a
very young age, Jack probably loved both his wife and daughter very much
and covered this up and imprisoned Angel to try to protect her in his
eyes. This is similar to Dumbledore’s sister in Harry Potter where they
hide the fact that she has uncontrollable magic to protect her and it
ends up in the death of their mother and eventually her. If this is the
case that could be why his wife is a hot button issue to him.

Again, that is an assumption, pure speculation, on the premise that what Jack has said is true. And I personally would not accept that premise at all.

#38

Wait wasn’t this explanation kinda obvious. This was obvious to me by the end of the game. Is this explanation really not the general consensus everyone has on this O_O…

#39

I’m still sticking with the head-canon that Angel’s mom is actually Tannis. It makes several bits of BL1&2 both far more obvious and far more disturbing.

…especially the “broken fingers” bit.

#40

Firstly I must address that people definitely can’t remember nor mention events that happened an exceedingly long time ago, regardless of their relevance to the conversation, so I guess I’m living in a fantasy world for believing such a ludicrous thing.

Secondly I must concede that you are probably right in the Moorin conversation happening after Eleseer (I neglected to note in the same ECHO he refers to himself as Handsome Jack when dictating to Blake when I was egregiously tacking that afterthought to my original post). I will follow the premise that the Moorin conversation undoubtedly happened after Eleseer:

I’m not gonna make any more speculation at the timeline for you to poke holes in, as any speculation I make can easily be refuted by “since there’s no proof from a reputable source (Basically anyone that isn’t Jack) that X happened then it’s a baseless assumption that does not follow logic”. I’m just going to take a look at what you say would be logical.

In your speculated timeline, Angel’s mother/Jack’s wife would have allowed Jack to lock up her daughter for 10-15 years, before making an objection to using Angel, and then disappear. This seems quite improbable, at least as improbable as Moorin referencing an event that happened when Angel was young.

#41

everything is speculation at this point because there is no information. I wish there was a book like there is for the Mass Effect series that filled in every little plot hole and missing information there is, I would read that, probably several times.

#42

Good and bad are such a childish qualities. I’d say it like this: he’s just a man. Not a monster from the dark depths of hell, just an average human being. But he also someone who has an insane amount of power (and money) and that alone changes people. No one should have such power, it’s that simple. Because it’s a nature of men, if you think it takes a monster to abuse power to such an exten you’re sadly wrong. We have many examples - like Stanford prison experiment for instance.

And yes, other people are also to blame. By only attempting to kill him and not killing they’ve done a terrible mistake. Because if you’re gonna do such thing… at least do it properly. What they were thinking? That he will forgive and forget? More like resent and remember. I don’t understand Lilith at all.

#43

In short, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

But I think there’s more going on in Jack’s twisted mind than that. Sociopath is the perfect label for him.

#44

He fits my understanding of a sociopath.

#45

  1. I doubt that Angel’s mother/Jack’s wife would have “allowed” Jack to lock up Angel. More likely, Jack just did it because he knew he can benefit from having his daughter locked in a box and jacked into the ECHOnet. All motives aside, I’m still not clear what you say is improbable. Is it that Angel’s mother disappeared after angel was locked up, or that angel’s mother would make an objection to Angel’s incarceration?

  2. What I have said is that Angel’s mother would have disappeared after Angel’s imprisonment, not before. Her disappearance before Angel’s imprisonment would only seem probable given specific premises, such as Angel’s mother and Jack’s wife being two different persons.

#46

Jack was a man who put his own young daughter into a box for several years, long before he had risen to power. I think that qualifies as “bad.”

#47

And beside that fact we know absolutely nothing about the whole situation. I’m not sure what the f he was trying to accomplish then, so I left it off-topic.
Btw,kinda reminds of Elizabeth’s situation in Bioshock Infinite.

#48

“Everyone thinks they’re the hero of their own story.”

#49

Even when he is at his “'most evil” in bordrlands 2 realistically he is kind of justified for everything he does, and you can say he was going to destroy the world, well we know there are other worlds people inhabit yet Pandora is inhabited almost entirely by bandits and criminals, there are very few good people, and the good guys are still pretty bad, look at your own charecter you are basically a bandit when you think about it, you’ve come to Pandora to find a vault so you can be loaded and you sing care how you do it, you kill hundred, thousands, maybe even millions of people to get to your goal. Jack has a simple goal make a better Pandora, and when something is sick and infected you have to treat it by cutting and burning away the infection and dead tissue, corrupt or not Jack had the purest cause and is one of closest things to a hero in these games

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