Is it me or is Vladof Moze really underwhelming?

I tried doing an all Shredifier build and using a combination of Shredifiers, Lucian’s Calls and Double Bezoomies, but the damage output in Slaughter Shaft seems really low — even when I am drilling a frozen hardened badass right in the face.

I’ve been thinking about it some and perhaps, despite appearances, Moze wasn’t meant to use large mag, fast ROF guns (St. Ogre excepted). Perhaps Moze’s magic is really meant to turn high damage, small mag weapons into machine guns.


This right here. I think people are limiting Moze potential by trying to find weapons with the biggest mags so as to sustain them forever - speccing into Iron Bank and Matched Set even though its superfluous on something like a Shredifier, much less a Lucian’s Call. Being able to hold down the trigger forever is cool, but unless it has additional utility (like the continuous damage of the alien barrel ARs) it is a cute gimmick.

However, much like Sals 5SO6, the true potential of the BM tree is unlocked when we take weapons balanced around ammo consumption, use her mag size buffs + COM/relic mag size to push them over the edge such that Redis, Forge and Cloud of Lead can sustain them for a extended, but not necessarily limitless period. LazyData already demonstrated this using a Lyuda, but something like a Crossroads, Dictator or even a Maggie or Bekah would work as well.


I’m running with Jericho (for second wind), and 3x Faisor (Fire, Rad and Shock). BM + SoR works great with this.


Not that killing GeeDubs is a measure of anything, but my two Moze smacks the Graveward piñata one of two ways: with a Double Penetrating Alchemist buffed up by IB hitting crits to proc Redistribution, or when elemental damage is tanked, a Maggie.

This to say that her skills really prop up these guns to the point that our giant target dummy piñata crashes under their power. (Also, no elemental projectors used, but a mindsweeper). Like.

Hell. My main mobbing gun is a shock laser Sploder. It never runs out of ammo unless I get messy. Crits for days keep it going and dropping bombs.

I used a BEARCAT on Traunt and never had to reload
It…it took forever, but I did it. In “one clip” lol.

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The problem is how they went about regenerating ammo and the fact that she doesn’t have many ways to boost her fire rate (the Mr. Caffeine shield has crossed my mind for boss farming). Vladof AR’s already come with decent sized magazines, so all you really need is Redistribution. Any more is excessive and you usually never benefit from Click Click. The playstyle could benefit from changing Forge and/or Redistribution to scale with missing ammo. The less remaining ammo, the more ammo regenerates. That way you can maintain a sweet spot that can take advantage of Click Click and sustained fire. Also, it wouldn’t hurt if they also buffed Click Click a little bit.

Lucian’s Call would be better utilized by non-BM Mozes and other classes. There’s just no way for it to benefit from the lower part of the tree.

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Moze’s reliable damage, sadly comes from her mods. Blast Master which kinda dictates you take BM unless the ogre is the only thing you’re using and limits your gun selection to splash weapons. Bloodletter, which has high potential, but requires weak enemies to spawn to build stacks.

6x/12x The Dictator, actually works well with click, click… If you can get it’s Magazine into the seventies.
Boneshedder, works well with Short Fuse and Mind Sweeper.
E-tech Vladof Pistols work well with Blast Master


My own hope is that a new legendary class mod favouring the BM tree would make them better one way or another. It seems better to run Vladof ARs with Mindsweeper due to the range and rate of crits than anything else.

So far my most efficient runs in Slaughter Shaft have all been based around the Butcher and Crossroads. As @darreltan2004 said above, you get way more by buffing the magazines of powerful weapons that other VHs would be forced to reload. Imo, this is what the BM tree was designed to do with all its mag size buffs and Some for the Road. Vladof ARs already have very big mags - using them with heavy investment in BM tree feels like a waste of skill points to me.

It’s why I’ve resisted putting the Shredifier in the top gear guide so far. I never feel like I ought to be using it over certain other weapons. Not saying they’re not fun to use. I love those things. :slight_smile:

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I like to think that Moze is technically angry at Vladof and has spurned their weapons…but has managed, through her years with them and the tech in Bear, to incorporate their mag size tech into any weapons she wants.


If your talking about Phalanx Doctrine it’s not that big. It’s additive with majority on her gun buffs.


I’m glad to see that I wasn’t the only one here.

Vladof Moze may not work, but perhaps Jakob’s Moze will…

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PD has a lot of potential, if you there are enough trash mobs in the area. +200% damage for killing 20 enemies in short order is not a bonus to scoff at

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But it’s additive with literally every gun buff in the same skill tree.

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so what if it’s additive? Moze’s base damage is +165%

+15% Armored Infantry
+50% Desperate Measure + Deathless
+100% Blast Master + Splash Damage Weapon
With 3 kills it’s
+60% Drowning in Brass
+30 % Phalanx Doctrine and Phalanx doctrine has no limit beyond how fast enemies spawn in.

and this doesn’t take into account vulnerability modifiers and and crit damage.


You should use the damage formula on the community guide. Do it with and without Phalanx. It obviously increases but is it worth 5 points?

Considering that’s only one of it’s effects and the other part of it is quite strong, I’d say depending on the build, yes.

I put two points in it and two points from my COM, so I’m not saying it’s a terrible skill. It’s just so far down the tree in needs to be considered for what it actually does and knowing it’s additive with every single gun damage skill we grab to get it devalues it. And the additional shield is nice, but needs a way to constantly be filled.

That is why I said depending on the build. My recent build for example takes it because we 100% rely on SOR tree for our survival, so any extra shield is a godsend to the build. And the damage is just a nice bonus ( the build takes a majority of what SOR offers). If I was just trying to find damage, those points could find better bonuses elsewhere.

You are right that Moze already has ALOT of raw gun damage, hence even with 10+ stacks, PD contribution to DPS isn’t hugely substantial. It is also hurt by the fact that Desperate Measures is basically as strong, but far more easy to upkeep.

But I would say PD is definitely worth 5 points - just perhaps not in the current level cap. Its one of Moze strongest skills, probably the 2nd best of her DPS skills. The main reason why players don’t always invest 5 points in PD is not because it isn’t amazing, but because it is too deep down the SOR tree, and Tenacious Defense is pretty much useless in the current state of the game. Hence, there just isn’t enough points to invest heavily in BM/DW - and more commonly an intermediate investment in both - and reach PD at the same time. But if PD was just 1 tier higher, I would say it is a definite 5/5 for me.

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The 12x Dictator is pretty strong, maybe 2x super shredifier as well but it’s super rare. Faisor is decent, Lyuda powerful but limited. All alien barrel vladof epics are worth trying. IMO Torgue Moze has a huge potential.

Moze depends on a lot of her COMs. A Shreddifier hitting crits with Mind Sweeper can deal pretty great damage, but you need to crit, which can be tough without a bipod (which in turn kills your mobility) or on certain enemies. Plus, BM without explosive weapons pairs better with SoR tree, so you lack the restore of Vampyr.

If Moze had another sustain skill in BM or SoR, you could do a lot more with her.