Is it PvE that killed PvP and Battleborn in general?

If you have 25 characters you’d have to record 25*24/2 = 300 different stories/campaign variants for each possible pair. And it’s only for 2 players, while we can have 3-4-5-man missions too. Seems too much work.

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Oh, I understand. I’m not blaming Gearbox for my preconceptions not fitting the game’s reality - I’m just describing my experience of coming to understand what kind of game this actually is, as opposed to what I thought it would be.

I am surprised, though, that there isn’t at least some banter between player characters in PVE, because we certainly do have plenty of it in PVP.

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I know many hate borderlands TPS but enjoyed how characters interact in the story. Thats what i expected from battleborn.

I played pve, every single mission atleast 29 times trying to get every single interaction. I got a bit disapointed with OPs but they get a better reward so is not so bad.

I never liked PvP, to much anger and hate from some players, but oh god those taunts!! I cant get mad when i see melka’s drunk dance or montana spanking his butt.

I play both, pve and pvp. Both are this big game full of life. I have played a lot of ambra and everytime i kill Galilea i feel that pain in her voice, i love how phoebe dialogue with isic in the algorythm or how dr profesor boldur Fix things.

If i get bored of pve i play PvP, if i get bored of both i play something else. I know everyone here wants to find the real reason of why battleborn is not so popular and Fix it to be proud and show everyone else how amazing this game is.

Just show your love to devs… As an artist i know how painfull is to show your hard work and get a lot of mean feedback, do constructive feedback and be nice to our community. One thing battleborn has and overprice i mean overwatch need; a good community… They are so mean, salty and ugh! That game sometimes is a pain in the ass just to play knowing how awfull ppl are.

I enjoy to watch some videos of overwatch and anyone who asks what is battleborn in the coments gets so many fake/mean feedbacks when they have never played battleborn and say so many mean awfull things of everything!

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I’m afraid I don’t understand the point of this thread. How could PvE have possibly “killed” anything? If this game was PvP only then all the people that don’t play PvP, that only bought this game for PvE, would never have purchased it in the first place. Thus, this game would have been an even bigger flop if roughly half the people that bought “Battleborn” never did.

I find discussions like this amusing, though, as this is the same thing that movie execs and the like do, which so many claim to hate. Trying to figure out that magic formula. If you can get the algorithm (heh) right, then you are guaranteed a success! Except it rarely ever works that way. Do you know what “Fantasia”, “It’s A Wonderful Life”, “The Princess Bride” and “The Wizard of Oz” have in common? They all flopped. Each of them stunk up the box office, yet they are all considered classics now for various reasons. The thing is, no one really knows why some movies/shows/games work while others don’t. You can credit/blame quality up to a point, but that seems to only go so far. Did this game get hurt because of marketing? “Overwatch”? High expectations? All of the above? None of the above? Who knows? I mean, you can certainly make some educated guesses, but it will forever remain a mystery. This game could easily have been a massive success, it just wasn’t. They struck gold with “Borderlands”, then just got a shovel full of dirt with “Battleborn”.

However, as someone that came here for PvE, I feel I must defend myself. I was told, by the devs of this game, that I would be leveling up forever. I did not look into what that meant, it just excited me. In “Borderlands” there are so many ways to level, (levels themselves, loot, challenges), that I still haven’t “finished” my favorite characters, despite playing it for far too many hours. When I heard the devs responsible for the systems I love so much in “Borderlands” were refining it and making it even better, with 25+ characters to boot, I thought this game would be the one to play for years to come. Also, the set-up sounded fascinating. The last star of the universe, planet hopping, every alien race coming together and fighting for survival. I thought it would be an epic that would make dealing with Handsome Jack seem like a Sunday brunch.

Instead, I got a “campaign” with MOBA rules. I level up forever because my levels keep resetting. …Yay? I never get that sense of progress, of my character getting stronger. The “story” is barely there. Eight missions that don’t really connect in any way, enemies that are pretty quiet, stages that are on rails for the most part. It just feels empty and pointless. I still, to this day, am not sure why Rendain is a villain, or what he is even trying to do that is different from everyone else. Because, you see, he hardly makes an appearance in the entire campaign. And if I want to know about the characters I like to play, well, I better get ready for some retched PvP grinding!

So, if I were to take a stab at why there was such a huge drop off, it would simply be the typical case of a game trying to please everyone, thus pleasing no one. I find that most games that try to have too many things aren’t very good at any of them, since the dev team is split and there are simply too many bowling pins up in the air to juggle them all. I don’t PvP, but I have heard about awful maps and bad balance. As for PvE, compared to Gearboxes other efforts, it is very bland and not terribly engaging.

I admit that I got into it again when the Thrall Rebellion was released. I’ve gotten the new costumes for all the characters except El Dragon, (is there a reason he dies so easily? He “feels” like he should be fun, but in practice he just…sucks). However, once I got the rewards I wanted, that was it. Haven’t played since. In fact, the new mission really highlights the problems with PvE in this game as a whole. For a massive rebellion, the whole stage is pretty empty. I don’t feel like I’m in the middle of a civil war, and I have no idea why there is this noir detective story going on. I guess some writer thought it would be amusing? They also came up with all these side missions to do, but once you hit 50 ops there are only a couple of possible missions you can get, and they all suck. Defacing statues and destroying propaganda are things I’d expect to do during a rebellion, but those missions disappear at the 50 ops mark.

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[quote=“maskerader, post:20, topic:1550059, full:true”]
What if it was the opposite? PVE content attracted more attention than
devs’ expected while PVP had much less success than expected despite PVP was more promoted.

You have no reasons to blame PVE for the game failure. Because I can do the same and claim the game would be more successful if they didn’t focus on PVP this much. They’d even avoid competition with Overwatch this way, which, you guess, would be very important. Actually, I think my opinion has more ground.
[/quote]It depends on what you want to archive. With good PvE people would play it even by themselves, and amount of players would be a concern to a lesser degree. To do that you would need to reduce repetitiveness of PvE as much as possible, having a fully fledged PvE with story, closer to how Borderlands is. However if you want to build a different game with both PvE and PvP, you need a community of players that will constantly play the game, and for that I think PvP is better, just because it is less repetitive than the PvE we got in the game.

That said I blame neither existence of PvE nor PvP for the game failure. It is just that the players drop we had was next to impossible, and while PvP players tend to search for a reason for that in things like balance or technical issues, not many people considered what if PvP players werent majority to begin with. Just like you wrote. This is actually what I tried to point out.

I don’t think the PVE concept of the game is necessarily bad. Many people just weren’t ready to see it in that game. But at the same time the same repetitive farming is there in nearly every MMO. This misunderstanding could be solved with a proper marketing, I’m not saying “bigger marketing”, just proper one - which would correctly describe and target the story mode.

I, personally, don’t want another regular story, I’ve seen it so many times, and Battleborn’s approach is something new.

It wasn’t next to impossible. Compare it to other games, it was quite hard but not of something extraordinary.

How’s that even connected? PVE players don’t play PVP and there’s no way they could ruin PVP by dropping the game. If PVP was good enough itself, who cares how many people play PVE, millions or zero? But PVP players kept dropping the game too.

All those questionable statements and questionable logic - I don’t get the point of the thread.

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I don’t really think Gearbox made Battleborn with the intent of capturing the largest audience though. That’s kinda why I like them so much. They aren’t chasing the CoD rainbow like many other developers in this genre. They always do their own thing.

Battleborn was a bit of an experiment I think. I believe that they had the idea of this PvE/PvP hybrid and they loved it so much that they just had to roll with it and see what it became.

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“For every kind of badass”. No?

But they indeed did their own thing. Probably, that combination is what didn’t work - the game is too special to be for “every kind of player” audience; I suppose too many people just didn’t “get” the game without proper marketing or proper introduction/tutorials in the game.

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…I don’t get a true hate feeling from the community, just over-powered frustration with it being unfinished.
That game is fun, love the concept, but I can’t think of any area that seems like it could have been better.

Exactly this, except I only got to 500 hours before I found myself getting more frustrated due to not being able to unlock lore for my favorite characters and watching them become shadows of their former selves for PvP balancing before the game became too frustrating to play anymore.

[quote=“maskerader, post:26, topic:1550059, full:true”]
How’s that even connected? PVE players don’t play PVP and there’s no way they could ruin PVP by dropping the game. If PVP was good enough itself, who cares how many people play PVE, millions or zero? But PVP players kept dropping the game too.[/quote]
Again, I never wrote that PvE players ruined PvP by dropping the game.

[quote]All those questionable statements and questionable logic - I don’t get the point of the thread.
[/quote]It is about WHAT IF, and I literally wrote that. If majority of players were PvE players, and PvE wasnt good enough to keep them playing, then it would explain why we had such a big players drop. Thats it. As of why PvE players could be majority, several people here already hinted possible reasons. If you dont understand how this affects PvP then try to reverse the question, why PvP players could be a minority in the game to begin with? Was it by design or marketing choice? And if so, then I think it would be better the other way around. For such a game to work players who will play it constantly are needed, and I think that PvP due to replayability is a better basis for creating community. So if developer and publisher did something to get PvE players rather than PvP ones (or even if they didnt but it still happened), and at the same they didnt provide content good enough to keep those people playing, then it was possibly the recipe for a failure.

At this point I think I wrote the same thing several times already. If you dont get it then fine. You can question my logic, however please dont imply I wrote something I didnt, I never intended to blame any players.

Well, to be fair, the title of the thread;

Is it PvE that killed PvP and Battleborn in general?

That really does kind of imply that you think PvE players ruined PvP. And even the opening statement;

First off I bought the game for PvP only, and from the start considered PvE as a free addon, a bonus when compared to other PvP games.

Very much gives off a “we all know this is really a PvP game and it’s probably those PvE players that ruined it” vibe. You’ve said it was probably poorly worded and that’s not what you were getting at, which is fine. I’m just pointing out that people might be a little snarky in their responses due to this.

For me, I never considered this one or the other. From the marketing I always assumed this game was meant to be equal parts of both. I don’t know why people in this community try to insist it is really PvP/PvE with PvE/PvP tacked on. That was never the case, it seems.

I don’t necessarily agree that PvP is the only way to get a community. I believe someone once posted on these forums that the first “Borderlands” had more people logging on and playing than this game did. “Borderlands 2” dwarfs this player base, despite being a few years out. I played “City of Heroes” from beta to closing, and that had a thriving community that loved the game, many playing it for years. PvP was eventually added, but few people played it and most of the community felt it started to ruin their characters in PvE as balance changes bled over to the main game. It seems to me that the only thing required for a game to have a community is a game that is fun to play with others. Whether it’s PvP or PvE is irrelevant.

You’re right that PvP takes much less resources to create, though. LoL has, what, three maps? Maybe a special one that comes out once in a while. And even of those three maps, only one is considered the “real” game. Same with “Smite”. Whereas “Borderlands 2” has an absolutely giganctic world to explore with many different levels and maps, LoL only needs one, really. Actually, now that I think about it, we only have three types of maps in the campaign mode. Hoth Planet, Jungle Planet, and Tim Burton Planet.

As I’ve said, I can only speak for the PvE aspects of this game, and it’s rather bland. There just isn’t much going on, despite one of the most interesting concepts for a story line I can remember. I was very excited to go through the story, but it started to fall flat rather quickly. Actually, I remember only getting through the first four or five levels before I started playing other games. I eventually beat them all, (I’ve only played that last level once, and may never touch it again it was so awful), and never felt the need to go through them all again since there simply isn’t a cohesive story in this game. And as has been mentioned too many times, to get more story for our favorite characters we have to grind PvP, which I don’t think benefits anyone in PvE or PvP.

[quote=“Ossuary, post:32, topic:1550059, full:true”]
That really does kind of imply that you think PvE players ruined PvP. And even the opening statement;[/quote]Well I refered to PvE as a mode in the game, not players specifically, however I used to work as an esports publicist and I guess tendency to name things catchy probably did kick in a bit.

[quote]Very much gives off a “we all know this is really a PvP game and it’s probably those PvE players that ruined it” vibe. You’ve said it was probably poorly worded and that’s not what you were getting at, which is fine. I’m just pointing out that people might be a little snarky in their responses due to this.[/quote]I wrote that PvP player statement just to be clear to the people who read my post, so they know my viewpoint and be wary of any bias that I may display. Also obviously Im not native english speaker, so I do worry if Im understood the way I intended, but Im also used to how people can misinterpret words.

[quote]For me, I never considered this one or the other. From the marketing I always assumed this game was meant to be equal parts of both. I don’t know why people in this community try to insist it is really PvP/PvE with PvE/PvP tacked on. That was never the case, it seems.[/quote]For me it is a bit different in that I never saw any marketing for the game. I knew a game with such name was to be released and that it was going to be a hero shooter with campaign, but I really learned what it was from video by TotalBiscuit. The idea of hero shooter means PvP for me, but I dont like restrictions it implies on a shooter, so it was only after seeing that it really is a moba game I decided to buy it. This is also the reason I havent wrote much about marketing and if it was a reason why possibly more PvE people than PvP people got the game. I wanted to hear comments to what I wrote, examples of how someone did think it is more of PvE game or not. And there are some here.

[quote]I don’t necessarily agree that PvP is the only way to get a community. I believe someone once posted on these forums that the first “Borderlands” had more people logging on and playing than this game did. “Borderlands 2” dwarfs this player base, despite being a few years out.

It seems to me that the only thing required for a game to have a community is a game that is fun to play with others. Whether it’s PvP or PvE is irrelevant.[/quote]I agree on that. What I had on mind was the PvE and PvP which we currently got in the game. With the quality and repetitiveness that we got, I think PvP would be a better basis for community. If the PvE was on comparable level to Borderlands 2 it could be the other way around.

Half right imo. Im a borderlandser first and foremost who knew he didnt really want to play the pvp really (Well aware of how focused on pvp this was and Im sure every other bl person was too). I’m perfectly content redoing like three or so missions (GBX "conveniently’ left out that the two story missions they gave us in the open beta were basically the ONLY missions of this structure with most of the other ones being glorified tower defense, but thats an issue for a different day).

I was going to be perfectly content with redoing missions to complete all the character’s lores (30 characters lets say 10-15 hours or so to complete eaach one pretty good timesink for a game), but gbx fudged it SUPER HARD by making about half the cast uncompletable without playing PVP, which for me is completely unenjoyable (I have an fps and moba background its just not fun I’d rather play pve especially when im playing with a controller on wifi vs pc players).

Sure they made some of the ridiculous lore challenges easier, but I don’t want to play pvp, so basically as long as I knew completing the lore for all the characters let alone the characters I liked (Toby looked fun but fk getting double kills) was inpossible without pvp, I saw no real point in playing the game after the first three or four character maxes.

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I don’t think PVP players were the minority. The game looks more like PVP-oriented, that’s why so many people claim this is a PVP game and almost no one claimed it’s a PVE.

There was a poll a month after the launch. If I remember right, the amount of PVE and PVP players were almost the same with a bit to PVP; as time goes by PVE fraction slightly increased. So I suppose PVP part of the playerbase took more drop than PVE one.


Regarding “what if”. I’d probably agree that if they only made one mode it’d be more complete and polished and probably more successful. But I don’t know why they decided to make PVP/PVE hybrid at first place so I can’t state it could be a better way, maybe it wasn’t even an option. And of course I can’t state that the PVE was the reason this game flopped - it definitely looks like PVE part actually survived better than PVP one.

The one thing that has damaged this game the most is the completely counter intuitive matchmaking system. Finding 5 players and then finding another 5 players makes wait times far longer than they need to be and unbalance the game to a point where noobs play once and say “f@$k it, I quit”.

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Nothing obvious at all, actually. I always enjoy being surprised when a forumite confesses to English being a second language. Usually those people write better than some native speakers. It’s why I’m an advocate for being bilingual, as I learned more about the English language while studying German in school than English itself. I mean, I can speak English fine, but learning another language really got me to understand the flow of language better. For instance, that last sentence I wrote is a mess.

Your writing is just a little bit rough, but completely coherent. I’ve had no problem understanding you.

If the devs decided to jettison half the game and focus on the other half, at this point I would agree that PvP is what they should keep. Even the campaign is set up with MOBA rules and would need a significant amount of content added in order to have any real staying power. They would also need to overhaul the leveling system and maybe add some actual, sweet loot. Basically, it would take a tremendous amount of work to get this game to be a standalone PvE experience, whereas with PvP I imagine they would just need to balance more, or something. Maybe create one “real” map to go along with all the other PvP maps. Does this game already have what would be considered the “real” map in PvP, (e.g. Summoners Rift in LoL or Conquest in “Smite”)?

Base on decade of reading complaints on forums, and what was said in the last 6 months on youtube, comments, reddit and here, here are some points on why it didn’t appeal to most. Any of the following point is enough for a gamer to stop or not be interested. Careful, it doesn’t affect us, Battleborn fans. But it’s a reality.

  1. Gearbox reputation because of Alien Colonial Marines and Duke Nukem Forever
    Unfortunately, some gamers will never touch this game because of the hate they have toward Gearbox because of those two games (even if it’s not GB fault “entirely”)

  2. It’s not Borderlands 3
    Some are simply waiting for this game to die so Borderlands 3 can come

  3. Not Free-to-play on PC
    On console, it isn’t such a big deal, but on PC, it’s goes differently. Some really feel it should have been a free to play.

  4. Marketplace on console.
    On console, some gamers really hate microtransactions and just pass on a game altogether.

  5. Online only
    Some (console) gamers don’t buy digital games. They fear something, about something…

  6. Too short
    After 1 or 2 playthrough, it’s enough, they play other games. (I am in this category, I try 2-3 playthroughs, but this game is something else!)

  7. Failable mission / no checkpoint / too "challenging"
    I use to read about Experiment and Saboteur being impossible. Half of the gamers quit the story mode between the first mission and the last mission based on the trophies.

  8. Art style
    This one breaks my heart. Some really couldn’t understand the art style and believed it was ugly and “PS2-like”. Silly gamers.

  9. Bullet sponge (pve and pvp)
    Some gamers really don’t like not being able to be overpower, or something.

  10. Low community / matchmaking
    I’m putting those together, because of low community, matchmaking is not great. Hard to find match, and match that suits your favorite mode, suits your “ranking”.

  11. Season Pass content
    Gearbox are not EA or Ubisoft and can’t release new DLC after two months. Some just couldn’t wait. Something to do with skins also.

(writing this doesn’t make me feel good. This is my favorite game this year and I absolutely love it, I managed to bring a few friends who never heard of this game, and even purchased a PS+ subscription so we could all play together. This game was great from the start and it became even better with all the new contents and patches)

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[quote=“Ossuary, post:37, topic:1550059, full:true”]
Nothing obvious at all, actually. I always enjoy being surprised when a forumite confesses to English being a second language. Usually those people write better than some native speakers. It’s why I’m an advocate for being bilingual, as I learned more about the English language while studying German in school than English itself.[/quote]
Well thank you. I had English, German, Russian and French classes in school. Im Polish and we usually have 1 obligatory foreign language in elementary school, and then 2 in our next schools.

[quote]Basically, it would take a tremendous amount of work to get this game to be a standalone PvE experience, whereas with PvP I imagine they would just need to balance more, or something. Maybe create one “real” map to go along with all the other PvP maps. Does this game already have what would be considered the “real” map in PvP, (e.g. Summoners Rift in LoL or Conquest in “Smite”)?
[/quote]They did say that it is the biggest game they ever did, and that they worked for years on it. I even think I heard them saying it will be multiple times bigger than Borderlands, but dont quote me on that.

As for real map, it depends on your definition. We have playable maps, Monuments for incursion being probably the most played one, and for a reason, but definitely nothing that would be recognizable by players from other games. Nothing that would inspire other maps.

[quote=“laverdieremanu, post:38, topic:1550059, full:true”]
8.Art style
This one breaks my heart. Some really couldn’t understand the art style and believed it was ugly and “PS2-like”. Silly gamers.[/quote]
Im one of those, I dont like those long faces and jaws. One of the reasons I probably didnt follow the game when it was in development and didnt pay any attention to the release. The other one would be the game being called a hero shooter, which for me meant a simplified shooter. I can tell that characters are all well done even if not exactly up to my taste, but I wont play some of them just because I dont like how they look.

[quote]9.Bullet sponge (pve and pvp)
Some gamers really don’t like not being able to be overpower, or something.[/quote]Probably mainly fpp shooters players. Im one of them, and I wont play a fpp shooter that is too spongy. However since the game is moba, Im fine with it. So I think this would be a complain of people who dont really know what the game is.

[quote]11.Season Pass content
Gearbox are not EA or Ubisoft and can’t release new DLC after two months. Some just couldn’t wait. Something to do with skins also.[/quote]Well, to be fair EA and Ubisoft are publishers, and Gearbox is a developer.

[quote]I managed to bring a few friends who never heard of this game, and even purchased a PS+ subscription so we could all play together.[/quote]I didnt. I had to tell them that it is hard to find players, and no one would pay so much for it. Maybe if they could try it before buying. And I dont blame them, I would be exactly the same.

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