Is the LLC underpowered as a whole?

I’ve been stuck for nearly a week on the “Win two games as an LLC Battleborn” quest, and it’s gotten me thinking about the power levels of the various factions. It seems to me, upon a short read through the forums, that in most cases public opinion is that the LLC version of a class is the worst one. ISIC is the worst tank, El Dragon is the worst striker, Marquis is the worst sniper ( or, at least, “underpowered”). I don’t play Phoebe, but she seems to hold her own, as does KU. Kleese is strong in some scenarios and not-so-strong in others.

So, my question is: are the LLC BBs really the bottom of the barrel, or are they just suffering from a combination of poor players and/or difficult design?

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I dont think that they are the bottom of the barrel, ISIC is more than just a tank el dragon iant as bad as people think he isnt the monster he used to be. I hate marquis however he is a decent sniper and usually get high dps at the end of the game. I see what you mean though but I think its poor players over poor characters.

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The real mystery is why the Gearbox team still insists Dragon is the most powerful character in the game.

I’m definitely a vet in this game and have spent time with each character equally.
That being said, I don’t see any specific faction as lacking.

The LLC has some real strength.

Dragon? No, that character is fun though.

ISIC? Has abilities that can be used for very powerful game skills.

Kleese? OMG!

Marquis? It’s him and Beatrix and he is the real power.

Phoebe? Wow, done properly she can disassemble anything.

Kid Ultra? Can’t imagine where or how KU is underpowered, and so much fun too.

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El dragon: get regen + dr, dr+regen, more hp+hp. lvl5 you are rly rly tanky.

Marquis: att speed+ power, recoil + w.e, attack power + speed. lvl 5 u become a monster

Kleese: skill + shield, shield+ skill, attack power+shield. Lvl 6 you can destroy montana

Ku: att power+speed, cd+cd, reload+reload. Constant fire and drones is a constant push.

Isic: skill dmg+shield, att power+ shield, shield+shield. Lvl5 destroyer of sentries.

Phoebe: att power + shield, att speed + power, mocement speed + speed. Lvl3 she becomes rly tanky.

I have so much fun with llc faction, they play rly diff from anyone else. El dragon is rly underpower from lvl 1 to lvl 3, a lot of hit and run.

Isic needs to tank using his blue shield, wards and his phisical shield, but man he hits hard.

Marquis is the only sniper who can put high dps thx to att speed helix/gear and his passive in the second hit.

Kleese bouncing mortars are stupidly strong with shield strip, he can hit up to 2k+ dmg.

Phoebe has a powerfull slow, natural att speed and a way to close the gap with her alt fire.

Ku bleeding bolas is so strong to secure a kill! And has a nice power dealing with waves.


In my experience.

Phoebe is a beast, but she is late game. when I see a good phoebe player I usually try and push for an early win as she can destroy anyone at level 7. (pocket Beatrix and she is damn broken)

Kleese - I ban Kleese from every game I play. doesn’t seem to matter who I play I get crushed by kleeses. He basically flys. he claims territory and I find him to be broken IMHO.

Marquis - guys solid in his role.

KU - kids got skills (pun intended)

El Dragon - Genuinely have only played him when he got nerfed. so cant speak.

ISIC - Cant play him personally

seriously though I hate kleese. If anyone has any tips to how I can kill that old D**K please do because he is the bane of my life. .

The key to killing Kleese is to push him out of his little garden. If you can AoE his pylons, or use a pull, you can strip his shields quickly. He’s fast, but not very tough once you get him moving.

Now, I’m not saying it’ll be easy, but it can be done.


I suppose that’s it when hes embedded and behind good cover he can be near impossible to kill.
im not the kind of person that loses his temper but Kleese makes me see red.

I play a lot of kleese and I think his greatest strength is the fact alot of people dont know how to handle him (assuming his rifts are set up).

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I must admit, my experience with LLC BB is limited to Marquis (mastered), ISIC (all but the Kleese lore complete) and Kleese (all but the map lore). I’ve played the other 3 no more than twice each, but certainly didn’t enjoy those runs. Additionally, of course, facing a BB is always a question of the skill of the opponent combined with your team. That said:

I notice, however, that other than KU and Phoebe, all of your examples require the BB getting at least halfway into their helix to become effective. Even then, some of them are only effective in specific circumstances. For instance, ISIC can be awesome post-5, so long as you don’t have a Rath or Deande on the other team constantly stunning you out of turret mode. It’s the getting him to L5 that seems to be the issue. His TTK is low, his damage is low and his base accuracy is low. Sure, you can Aegis when you’re targeted, but then you can’t attack or overcharge. Combined with his lackadaisical movement, he’s too often food for Deande and Pendles. How do you deal with the issue of getting him to L5 without a shard generator in short enough time to affect the outcome?

With Marquis, I’m attributing him the same role as Beatrix (since there’s no “pure” ranged Jennerit), Thorn, Benedict and Orendi, ranged DPS. I don’t feel that he’s anywhere near as effective out of the box as any of them. By mid-game, he’s outstripped Thorn (due to range on Bindleblast) but still WAY behind Orendi and Benedict (jury’s out on Trixie).

With ED I’m operating on the fact that I see him chosen in fewer than 10% of my games…

The others are competitive with their counterparts in other factions.

This is probably a pointless conversation, since there’s no faction limit on PvP (though I’m going to start campaigning for a Faction Battle variant game). I’m just wondering if my perception is backed by the experience of others, and if it has something to do with the LLC being the “tech” faction, and therefore more dependent on gear.

Kleese is definitely not underpowered, he should be labeled as an Assassin :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

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I’ve mastered Isic and Kleese and am pretty high rank as Phoebe and I gotta say I feel the LLC is pretty damn powerful. I feel Rogue faction is the most underpowered of all the factions.
Isics wards can reflect any shots back at the enemy and his Ult, though now only lasting ~40 seconds, is amazingly accurate and powerful if used properly.
Kleese has craaaazy kill power if geared properly and the correct helix’s are picked. Try for a high damage mortar build by focusing gear on increasing shield strength and taking the helix that uses all of his shield strenght and puts it into mortar damage on each use. Once you hit level 7 and bounce your mortars around with his mutation he can kill a bone crusher thrall in literally 1 hit O.o
Phoebe focused on attack speed is just unstoppable if she knows how to utilize her side step hit.
I feel KU is ok where he stands but he cant hold his own and has no escape plan. And though ElDragon just got a small buff, he’s nothing but a shell of his former self.

Rogues on the other hand have Orendi and S&A … and that’s about it hahahaha
A good Pendles and a good Reyna come in handy in some occasions but I feel LLC are more versatile and can deal more damage. Plus, I’ll take 3 shield chargers keeping my whole team alive over relying on a person to hit one other person with a small overshield every once in a while.

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I haven’t tried the full-on mortar tactic with Kleese much. I usually find myself on a PUG with a Marquis, a Thorn, a Pendles and an OM, so I prioritise buffing… I’ll give it a try.

Toby in the hands of a good player is ugly-cry inducing. I can’t stand playing Reyna, but I can’t stand playing against her as well. WF seems underpowered; I occasionally come up against a nasty one, but it’s rare. S&A was the first character I mastered, and remains the only Rogue I’ve finished. Been working on Orendi slowly, but I’ll have to go deeper to compare.

Isic lvl1 177 dmg is not low, you can use symbiotic gauntlet and bola’s target finder to increase your dmg, skill dmg and attack power both makes your basic attack hits hard, all you need is accuracy. If deande targets me, i can plasma dash away, im not gonna stand in a place easy for rath to stun me and his wards give you few seconds before anyone can stop you (beatrix silence).

Have you ever used charging on the go lvl3 right, in a rush lvl 5 right?

Maybe you have bad accuracy but i can destroy ppl as marquis. Maybe i cant land the final blow but i can make ppl stop a push and keep constant preasure. I wont like his attack has some bugs and sometimes shots wont register. But overall 5 owls around me peotecting my escape rout makes me a slippery target.

El dragón needs a high skill lvl to be used nowdays, not many likes that.

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The LLC are fantastic. They have some of the highest damage dealers in the game and can be exceptionally hard to kill.

How do you have Bolas’ Target Finder and Symbiotic Gauntlet active at lvl 1? (Also, I don’t have Bolas’ because *@!£&!! The Experiment!)

I’ve tried PD-ing away from Deande, but I find that she usually just chases me down, or she’s already flanking me on two sides. I just need to get in the habit of popping PD the instant I see her coming. My issue with ISIC and Deande is that as soon as I go ult, she’s there with her CC.

With Marquis, I find that it takes 3 hits to break most shields, and more than 3 to kill (without a crit). Since you only start with 6 shots, the target flees while I’m reloading. I’ve occasionally led the team in kills, but I usually find myself in the 3-6 kill range and 10-15 assists. Maybe this isn’t bad, but when I see “tanks” like Gally with 20 kills, it strikes me as poor payout for a sniper.

Fittingly, the best way to kill Kleese is through Ghalt.

And, technically, balance wise, LLC might be the worst faction. But they’re my favorite in lore, personality, and background, second favorite in gameplay (UPR takes that spot).

But El Dragon is kind of the unwanted child of LLC right now, and ISIC is not in a great enough spot (IMO; some helixes are lacking and he has less health than Shayne and Aurox to start. Like what?), but he’s still deadly with a team, just like any tank.

The thing with ISIC that most people don’t understand is that he’s not a traditional front line tank or really even a tank at all. He’s best played at range and as a backline tanky dps sniper.

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Agreed. He’s an artillery piece with the size and shape of a tank, and secondary tank abilities. I feel like the intention was that he and Kleese would pair up to form a tank, with Kleese keeping his shield continuously topped off while he sits in a lane and delivers fire. Kleese then lobs mortars over his head and uses the taser to chase off Deande and Pendles. That’s the way they SHOULD be played, but for some reason no one wants to play Kleese (even though he’s either first or second on the LLC power scale). At least when I’m on, everyone wants to play a sniper or Deande…

They should make him tankier, give back aoe on primary shot, and reduce his damage just a bit. And fix up those bad helixes he has – shield pen on Plasma Dash? But why?

Also make Dash a 1.5 sec stun with that augment. 1 is too low.

Drop wards in place is only helpful for snipers on your team, it feels like that anyway. Can we make it drop a half-health ward series when ISIC activates Wards? So ISIC doesn’t lose his best form of protection?

7.5 or 10% damage increase per target at level five, not 5%. 25% damage boost to Plasma dash is pitiful. Especially given the cooldown.

Oh, and change Plasma Dash’s overcharged effect. Currently it gives like an extra 20 dmg. Why? If you want to keep it to damage, perhaps make it DoT? Just not a crappy 20 point boost plox.

He does pair well with Kleese but he doesn’t need to work with him to get anything done. He can still pump out his absurd dps and avoid, block, or reflect fire at his own ideal range.

@MeltedCow I actually really like where he’s at. He feels unique in the sense that he’s more of an artillery piece or literal tank than a traditional tank who just soaks up damage. He’s ridiculously strong because of it but nonetheless, he has that unique role.