Is the LLC underpowered as a whole?

So, summing up the input so far:

Phoebe and Kleese: good to powerful, OK as is
KU: good survivability and Bolas, poor healing (?)
ISIC: Weak - tank who’s not a tank. Depends on specific gear and a lot of shards.
El Dragon: weeping softly :cry:
Marquis: OK. Contributes but lacks killing power.

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I wouldn’t say ISIC is weak just not a tank

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How does Marquis lack killing power? And yes, as @conorwillybums54 stated, ISIC is very, very far from weak.

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They ought to change his description from “tank” to “artillery” then. That would be more fitting. And it’s not hard to figure out what Artillery means either. It would be ISIC’s unique role but still be helpful. Toby has “adorable” for instance. Adorable is kinda funny but it’s not helpful at all to people trying to figure out Toby. So is “territorial”. He’s a sniper, first and foremost. Territorial Toby would be more advanced, I guess.

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Favorite thing to do with Isic: wait for a whiskey to ult, the pop wards and jump right in front of him. Lol, funniest thing ever


Poor Whiskey. Whenever he ults, if I’m ISIC, I activate wards. If he ults whenever I’m Montana, I ult and spit the damage back to him, either by self-nuke or bullet reflection.

Isic is a tank, not the rpg tank. More like irl tank.

Wards, overshield, shield and lvl 10 aegis

The devs said he would be tanky again at some point, I don’t know when though considering when they said galilea is getting work, and honestly I think the fact he’s best played as a sniper is dumb considering his kit, freaking toby is the artillery role

Because @Dr_H0H0 exists. They literally told us that they were balancing him around the fact that some players were still hitting insane performances with him (and the only one doing that is hoho).

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Literally just H0H0. He ruined it for himself :upside_down:

The LLC are late game characters. That doesn’t mean they are worse

That’s true of MANY for me, so I feel there are better methods

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Whiskey foxtrot is a hard counter to kleese. Shield web interdicter on most characters can wreak havoc on kleese as well. Hitting him with damage over time will prevent his natural shield charge but not the shield heal from his rifts. Shield web gives you 8 seconds to drop his health without him being able to shield himself.

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This is valuable knowledge sir. I just started playing whiskey yday. And I didn’t think the thone legendary especially had an effect on kleese rift heal. I will now go get me some old man scientist scalp

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This about sums it up. With the exception of Kid Ultra it takes time and levels for the LLC roster to really come into their own. By mid to late game though they’re some of the hardest hitters in the game. I say with the exception of Kid Ultra because they recently nerfed his late game really hard. Not saying it didn’t need it, just that since he gets the big bleed on Bola at lvl 1 the rest of his helix is more about personal flavor and filling out the team than just trying to power lvl to level 9.

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In the beta I played Toby as a pusher. Back when you could use his shield as support. I could drop a shield in between minion waves and prevent them from taking damage, heal and or buff them with attack or movement. Similar to Kid ultra with vigilance protocol. Do not try that now, but at the time territorial seemed to fit. Toby is one of the characters that in my opinion has a bit of an identity crisis about what role they are supposed to play. I agree that while he is certainly adorable that is not something that they needed to emphasize about his character and really just adds more confusion to what role he is supposed to play. He also has some of the worst helix options in the game and very little helix synergy. Has anyone used contingency plan or self destruct sequence after completing his lore?

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Whiskey was not so great but after they nerfed every aoe but his and fixed the trigger pull mechanic (omg my poor trigger finger) he is at least on par with OM. Stick and sap is amazing if you can hit with it, I usually go for the triple shot and napalm though. Spread em around or land all three on one, it’s pretty effective either way. He takes a bit more skill than OM and he has no getaway ability unless you count pushback on scrap cannon, which I don’t.

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Okay, so here is my rundown of the LLC characters from the viewpoint of a competitive PC player:

El Dragon: Not nearly as strong as he was in days past, he isn’t nearly as weak as some people would like to believe. He can function as a niche last-pick against a team sorely lacking the CC to deal with him, if played by a character comfortable on him. Rarely will you see him on Incursion, due to the lack of isolations he can achieve, but you may see him some on Meltdown since those isolations are possible, and there are fewer opportunities for him to be focused. Also, two new pieces of tech were recently discovered that improve his gameplay slightly: synergy between Sportsman’s Haute-Couture Kevlar and his level 6 helix “Hang Time”, and how his level 8 bicycle kick interacts with cancels into his skills (notably his ult). However, all this comes to a point: Phoebe can serve a similar function and do it more consistently. She has higher sustained damage (El Dragon outclasses her while in his ult, but not while outside), a more reliable initiation-escape combo, more mobility, roughly similar (if not better) chse, higher health, and the same damage reduction capability.

ISIC: Once the god of all character choices due to his AoE charged shot, ISIC has been brought down to earth with said AoE’s removal, the minion buff, and the axing of his perma-slow. While classed as a tank, ISIC is actually best played as a ranged DPS. His charged shot scales with both attack and skill damage, so building that on him can see him doing sniper-tier damage with a shot similar in behavior to Toby’s force-field shot. While he rarely sees play any more, this is more a factor of him not really fitting in with most meta team comps. He has all the tools to perform well: an escape, some degree of CC that he can obtain, a degree of tankiness from helixes and his reflecting wards, a sieging ult, crazy ranged damage, and a permanent wound. However, he’s just in a strange place in the current melee CC meta. He’s (nearly) got the tankiness to be a shield tank), but he lacks the CC options that tanks have, and doesn’t really have the presence to frontline like other big tanks (e.g. Montana) do. He’s got the ranged damage that other snipers have, but presents a large frame that other snipers lack, making it harder for the tanks to draw fire away from him. His ult is also really easy to shut down with all the CC that gets thrown around.

Kid Ultra: While he saw recent nerfs, KU still is a solid healer pickup, especially on Incursion. He can function similarly to Ambra in terms of healing and waveclear, but comes with higher damage and an AFK heal. He also has the late-game stun, that while severely nerfed, is still excellent at providing peel or canceling skills, and potentially providing the edge needed to win the late game. He also can stack crazy damage amp for ranged characters to camp on, or opt to not take the sunspot heals if there is another healer on the team, and instead stack 81% damage amp on a DPS for some nutty combos. However, he is a fat target with rather small animations, a small health pool, and a relatively large crit spot, making him a juicy sniper target. I personally would prefer KU on my team than Ambra.

Kleese: Complete garbage tier. He suffers greatly from “I’m a huge, immobile target” syndrome. He is good at setting up a camp and staying there, but has the easiest counterplay in the game: lob AOE into his camping spot, or hook him out of it. If Kleese is not sitting pretty in his rift network, he is dead. Kleese is only viable on certain team compositions that are filled with tanks to draw attention away from him and set up his overloaded mortars, and even then, if his team pushes up or rotates to the other lane, he is now vulnerable to instant deletion by common picks like Ghalt or common counters like Whiskey. He can only succeed if left completely ignored by the enemy team, and even then, he is hindering his team by being slow to relocate and being completely incapable of teamfighting.

Marquis: Very solid ranged carry, but only in the right hands. Despite the series of nerfs to his damage, Marquis still puts out serious hurt, and can absolutely decimate characters like Ernest, Kid Ultra, Miko, Ambra, Benedict, Orendi, and Toby, who pose massive crit spots and not much to do against him at range (with the exception of Toby). He also silently possesses some of the best wave clear in the game with his level 4 and level 8 helixes, as well as a nuke ult that is good as a finisher or a waveclear. His time bubble has a ridiculously low cooldown, and can be used to effectively block a choke point ad infinitum, or as an easy escape should someone jump on him. He also is the most reliable Shepard killer in the game, and almost always can kill Shepards between their overshield cooldown. However, he only rarely sees play, since he’s really only as good as your aim.

Phoebe: Phoebe can put out some incredible DPS, although she will rarely see much play on Incursion due to the lack of isolations and the prevalence of CC that just absolutely ruins her. I already discussed a good deal about Phoebe’s merits when talking about El Dragon, and it is worth mentioning that she is a frequent pick on Meltdown. She can get those isolations she is looking for, and has a much better opportunity to avoid CC since the teams are usually spread out. She also frequently will have a CC buddy running with her in Meltdown, so that they can set her up and hopefully absorb, bait out, or cancel some of the CC headed her way, and allow for her to carry.


In keeping with the feedback you guys had on ISIC, I went in last night and played him as a pure ranged DPS character. Night and day difference. GBX should really just change the descriptions of him in-game so that new players know he’s not meant to stand up front and tank damage, and he’d be a much more popular character.

Now I don’t have to feel like I’m stabbing my team in the back by selecting him. Thanks!


…Thanks for the grin.

I don’t know why the AoE shot had to be removed, Toby’s shots do more damage and go through everyone (provided with a utility, but still), Ernest does the same or more damage AoE every shot and has no charge time, bennedict is well, bennedict, also no charge time, and seeker missiles to boot.

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The AoE shot had to be removed because it was stupid powerful on him. There is a reason ISIC was on permaban for so long: he could effortlessly clear minion waves from sniper range. A high-damage, AoE primary attack, with no range limit or damage falloff. It is literally comparable to giving Toby’s shots through his shield AoE, both in terms of damage (due to double scaling) and shot behavior.