#57

Crit swapping is about the only real use for it in higher Mayhem levels for most people. The Unforgiven needs Overkill added to it’s base to crit with in order to work any other way (well, better than the average Jakobs pistol anyway) and in M4 there’s enemies that will take more than one shot to kill, stalling the overkill damage and making you start from scratch.

It’s still a hell of a lot of fun in lower mayhem modes tho :slight_smile: .

#58

There are some very strong pistols in this game. I’d argue that the variety of great pistols is pretty good. Maggie, Lucky 7, Craps, Moar Linoge, King’s/Queen’s Call… all top shelf weapons. The Hornet, The Duc, and Wagon Wheel can be solid for M3, as well. S3RV-80S-Execute and Baby Maker can be used to good effect in M4, though you need an ammunition plan.

#59

I didn’t say there were not strong pistols in BL3. What I did say was that M4 made the weaknesses of weapons stand out. On the Unforgiven, that is slow fire rate and below average base damage.

The Linoge is … fine. Top tier - meh, not sure. Nowhere close to the Maggie. Lucky 7? Absolutely, if you get the right reload roll. The Craps? Top tier? Mot sure about that either. It is fine, I guess. King’s/Queen’s Call - definitely situational in M4. Well outperformed by the Maggie, as is every pistol in this game.

To excel in M4, you need (maybe not need, but strongly favor/desire) both high base damage, multiple projectiles, high fire rate, and large mag. Outside that, a weapon faces many obstacles to being usable/abusable.

That is the point I was trying to make. This was not nearly as much of an issue for this weapon class in BL1. These mechanics first surfaced in BL2 and have been expanded upon in BL3.

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#60

I submit that what you really need for a weapon to be effective in M4 is synergy with class skills and/or other items.

Craps - playing dirty, plus two instances of trigger per pellet in sticky mode, allowing it to trigger things like the banjo or good misfortune on impact and again on detonation. See also: brain freeze. Through sticky mechanics, it also calculates damage based on speed moved at the time of detonation (violent momentum or driver relevant).

A radiation Craps with SNTNL cryo anointment is my best all around weapon on Zane right now.

Now… is that special case? Absolutely. That’s how things work in M4. Absent synergy, they fall behind. Given mechanics to build on, they excel.

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#61

Problem with it being a sniper pistol is amazing Grace exists and that thing is good good damage decent crit multiplier plus restores ammo on crit

#62

The weapon is absolutely great before reaching M4. In M4 it’s not bad, but definitely far from the great weapons

#63

just fyi , the gun is always been like that in previous borderlands , the only really to use it would be the masher variant

#64

I feel like maybe this is getting into subtleties, but synergies are really just something that push weapons over the top. You can have all the synergies in the world, but they won’t make up for something like low base damage or slow fire rate. A good example of this would be the Storm from BL2 - great synergies with several characters (Gaige with shock, Maya with grouping enemies up, etc.), but just not powerful or fast enough.

My only point is that to be truly great, it requires all those things. This is why I mentioned the fact of multiple projectiles. In BL3, not all, but a lot of the weapons that really shine have multiple projectiles or some other similar gimmick that makes them great PLUS good fire rate PLUS high damage PLUS synergies.

I would also say that what you pointed out with the Craps and Playin’ Dirty is not exactly something that makes the Craps better on him than any other single projectile (or low projectile count) weapon. The literal same thing applies to any single projectile weapon on Zane. It’s not exactly a synergy that is unique to the Craps. He just happens to have a skill that gives you a chance to fire an extra projectile, which applies to literally every weapon on Zane (if you spec PD). Is that a “synergy”? Eh…maybe?

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#65

The synergy with the Craps is from all of what I mentioned, including but not limited to playing dirty. Two chances per pellet to proc Seein Dead, CCC, banjo, crits, etc, plus two applications of cryo anointment per pellet, plus high damage per projectile. It’s… a lot.

#66

Am I forgetting something about the Craps? It’s been a while since I used it or played Zane - but isn’t it just a single projectile Torgue that fires only in sticky mode and deals splash? Doesn’t what you have said apply to any single-projectile Torgue sticky?

If I am forgetting something about the Craps I apologize (seriously, I may be forgetting something).

#67

Once per magazine, it fires 7 projectiles. For Zane, it’s incredible.

#68

The same could be said for the Duc which has an impact, a secondary explosion and even chains to 2 more enemies if you crit. I would argue it even performs better then craps on Zane even though it’s still considered a pretty medicore weapon.

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#69

It isnt much different on moze; the pistol itself has a random chance to fire 5 projectiles throughout the magazine. 1 dead center or 5 surounding - sort of reference to casino game actually called craps

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#70

Gotcha, I clearly forgot about that. When you proc both PD and the multi-pellet thing procs on the Craps, I assume you get one extra projectile? Not many, right? If so, again, why is this a unique synergy to the Craps? Not saying it is not good, I haven’t played with it enough to remember - just saying that any single projectile weapon on Zane can get this benefit through PD.

IMO, a “synergy” would be the interaction between the Projectile Recursion and Indiscriminate on Amara. Or between the Brainstomer and Megavore on Fl4k. Something like that.

#71

Correct, it has synergy with all 3 characters in a way; but i would say less with zane ; fl4k with megavore + twofang + leave no trace + headcount, moze with redistribution + means of destruction + matched set + forge + fire in the skag den ( + stoke the embers if inciendiary)
(I havn’t gone through with both zane and amara so i may miss some)

#72

Kab, the Craps badly outperforms the Duc for Zane with Seein Dead. With a CCC build, it isn’t even close.

#73

Again…

That is one piece of what I called out. Two checks per pellet for CCC is something specific to Zane. The sticky - Violent Momentum interaction is another.

#74

Fair enough.

#75

cheese

#76

I got one really early on as a low-level random drop and it was amazing… I was popping heads left and right… as soon as that crit % stopped keeping up with enemy hp enough to take people out in one or two shots (I think this was before the end of the first playthrough) it became bank trash.