Its possible a rework is needed for Deande


(nearbritt) #1

For this Stealth, Assassin, Advanced level character Deande is very hard to get into. It may be that we as the general users just do not realize how to utilize her kit but I feel like it only works in certain areas. Maybe it’s the damage of her skills. She is one of the characters I really grinded the levels for (passively) and wanted to play her and she has an awesome character design.

Weapons:
The Tessurim War Fans are described as her primary melee attack which strings together a series of rapid melee strikes. But I feel as if this is one of the first areas I have problems with her as her attack damage per hit or the attack speed feels unsatisfying. I know there is a learning curve as when I first played Shayne and Aruox and could use their basic melee attack after a game or two easily. With Deande I feel like the rhythm is too slow and it might be that the attack range is too small. Her secondary throwing fans are great and are actually the primary way I use her at times.

Passive: As it is hard to really see passive at times depending on the situation I believe it’s a good passive but I am not feeling any substantial increase from a 25% boost to attacks and skills. (of course, this may have problems with other areas)

Talents: I just assume this is the helix path options and possible paths including mutations and I have no real qualms or better said I can’t judge it very well due to my frustrations with the kit and trying to find her role in fights and other roles. I believe there is no need to really play a particular role since you give the option of augmenting the abilities to fit the situation so when I find it hard to find something I like with her other than throwing fans, this leads to my current frustrations.

Skills:
Holo twin : I believe this is an awesome skill and if used correctly is a very fun mechanic, If this is kept apart of her kit I’d have no qualms maybe the only thing I would change is the targeting system of the clone? But I need to experiment more with this. Possibly using the 2nd skill if the clone is still alive could be a mutation or something along those lines.

Burst Dash: Depending on the ability you choose to augment this can be an awesome dash attack with a slight build-up or an AoE damaging ability. But I feel that it feels weak. This might just be me and I would also need more time with her to see.

Blink Storm: Its so awkward to use that I find myself trying to kill opponents without using it at times and only when the opponent is less skilled or etc would I allow myself to try and use the ult. The 2 sec- delay honestly kills me (literally) and it does not seem to do much damage . I used Holo Twin and then went around to the back to ult a marquis and it did not even take out any noticeable damage upon him.

This is just my opinion When using her and I know that there are a few character who I just simply seem to be unable to have a good feel for them and have fun with them. But Deande is one of maybe two I would say goes beyond just not like melee or range, or etc. I just find it very hard to get into playing her and having fun.


BETA Battleborn Tier List (FINAL)
(SirIsaacNewbton) #2

Burst dash does have an AOE effect as the first helix upgrade, though don’t expect a huge damage boost by activating it. Most times with her, I jump into a fight and try to land as many hits as I can. As soon as I’m noticed, I deploy holotwin and try to gain a flank to continue attacking. This can take down most enemies pretty quickly.Try to work with your cooldowns in mind. It’s also smart to get the life steal with burst dash and use it out of your cloak to gain bonus damage/health.

I will agree that Blink Storm feels underwhelming. For the charge time (after activation) and the cooldown, the effect doesn’t seem equivalent. Sure, it’s great to stun crowds, but to take any of them out, you need a damage dealer with you or they would have to be at critical health prior to activation.

She definitely works better amidst chaos. It’s unwise to approach a team/player that is not being engaged by an external force.


(nearbritt) #3

yes yes, i agree with you, sigh i hope some things change for her because she appears to have an awesome character design and i would love to really explore the lore around her without having to tediously break my way into it


(Opsis) #4

Personally I think she’s a fantastic character, just she’s one of the ones you need to figure out just how to play her. I’m going to copy and paste in a post of mine from another thread. See what you think.

"After spending the last couple days playing deande I would say she should be bumped up the list. She is an absolutely incredible character.

She’s reasonably fast, with decent attack and survivabilty. I feel the key to getting the most out of her is to focus on using the ranged attack rather than melee. Her ranged attack has surprisingly good range and with the helix choice that increases damage by 18% it hits like a truck.

The only enemy I’ve had difficulty facing 1vs1 is ambra and we all know she’s a little on the strong side at the moment. Best thing to do is throw your clone down in an enemies face, move behind them or to their flank whilst stealthier and pound them with ranged attacks from a safe distance. I find enemies often waste their skills on your clone allowIng you to move In with your secondary ability and pound them with your melee attacks if it’s safe to do so, usually by this point the enemy starts to run and you can kill them as they flee.

Her ultra(super? Whatever it’s called) can be amazing help in a team fight, once Again throw in your decoy move round the side/behind the enemy and unleash it. This can do reasonable damage and stun up to 5 enemies for several seconds allowing your team to lay into them without reply. You can then swoop in for the kill on any enemies weak enough to take out or fall back to your team and support with ranged attacks.

So the main point here is to focus mainly on ranged and only use melee when you feel it’s completely safe do so."

Hope this helps? If you have any tips for me I’d gladly take them too.


#5

While you’ve certainly found a means to play Deande, the main issue I’m having with your current mindset of the character is the role she plays. Deande is an Assassin. As an Assassin her damage is underwhelming, especially compared to other Assassins such as Rath & Pheobe (I’d mention Whiskey Foxtrot but he underperforms as an Assassin as well).

Assassins are meant to dispose of squishy characters quickly like a Marquise, like a Thorn, and like a Oscar Mike. You get in, pop your abilities, kill the squishy damage dealers, and you get out of dodge before the enemy team can figure out where the heck you came from. Deande in her current state just doesn’t stack up to the other damage dealing melee characters, whether it’s in PvP or PvE she just lacks damage.

I main Deande, I have her at rank 14, and I’ve tried everything from different gear builds to different Helix builds. She just needs to be buffed, I wouldn’t go as far as re-working her, but there’s definitely an issue with her as a damage dealer.


(Opsis) #6

Yo! I’ve never played a moba style game before this is my first step into that field, a small step I must admit. So honestly I don’t understand how other mobas handle things.

I fully appreciate your feedback here, I do feel her damage output is pretty high if played right. She can handle squishy characters on a one to one basis such as marquis and thorn as I have done many times, though possibly not coming In for Guaranteed kill as may be expected in other games but she can get kills or at the very least force the enemy to pull back.

Maybe her role should be changed or maybe her role shouldn’t be considered at all? Some characters roles could be so unique that they can’t be classified at all.

One thing I can say though is that I feel that her melee attack IS lacking. Often I am in an enemies face and attacks I Feel should hit just don’t, so maybe a boost to her attack range would help?

Have you tried playing her as I have described?

Just want to make clear here that I’m not arguing with you. I just want to get the most of each character and ensure they are as balanced as possible. I appreciate your opinions and feedback as I hope you do mine? :grinning:


#7

No arguments here sir, only respectable discussion. I have tried playing mid-range Deande, while I can say that her secondary ranged attack does hit decently on the 3rd strike of the rotation (especially on critical strikes), it just isn’t a reliable source of damage for an Assassin.

Building around her mid-range attack seems a bit counterintuitive since she’s a melee Assassin, and not what’s known as an ADC or Attack Damage Carry like Thorn or Marquis.

You do bring up a nice point of this game being unique, and maybe Assassins aren’t the “I will delete you from the map now” kind of characters in this game as they are in more standard MOBAs. I don’t see that being the case when Rath can pretty much end characters in 3 or 4 full rotations of basic attacks (coupled with abilities), Pheobe can do the same as well. Deande, Whiskey Foxtrot, and Melka seem to be lacking as Assassins to me, however I’ve never done PvP with Melka so I don’t really know where she stands there. In PvE Melka underperforms in my opinion, she seems to be the burst damagey type without any of the burst.

I’d like to see Deande receive some buffs, whether it’s a reduction to her cooldowns, increase in basic attack damage, increase in natural movement speed + attack speed, most definitely an increase to her Ultimate, or something befitting a character of her playstyle. She’s an Advanced level character that doesn’t reward players for playing her well, at least in my opinion.


(Opsis) #8

Understood. The only concern I have personally is that I dominate with her in her current state so any buffs may push her into a broken state.

I agree maybe her physical attack could do with a buff. It’s just difficult at present to determine between a character that is just bad and a character that’s difficult to play.

I’ve given my opinion so I will leave it to those more intellectual than myself to decide on the next course of action. If deande gets buffed though I’m just going to be kicking ass all over the battlefield :stuck_out_tongue:


(teH69person) #9

I had no problems with Deande, regularly getting over 15 kills and less than 5 deaths. Gear was a blue shield, her unique legendary, and the pacifier legendary. I would always start the game farming until lvl 5 for her slow out of stealth. I made sure to focus on burst dash as much as possible (hence where the shield gear comes in) because calculated risk makes her do a ton of dmg. Lvl 3 you also need to get her Uppercut mutation, its beast. By end game I was getting consistently over 1k burst dashes as long as my shield was full (which was easy to insure with her unique legendary). As for her ult, I saved it for after I killed someone and had people chasing me. Once i turned a corner I started charging it and then hit them once they rounded it, and by this time my skills would be cooled down and I could be able to attack a weakened target for a free kill. I do not think she it underpowered at all, but I dont completely think she couldnt use some love either.


(nearbritt) #10

yeah, thats fine but since they give us a way to play characters different ways based on our preference and etc I would like to be able to do more than just having the play the way you described. Because the Devs realized everyone has a different pref and play style and what might work for some might not work for others not even considering the different situation that would come with that. So, in the end, i would just wish for an assassin like deande to be playable as one but also playable as an upfront damage dealer or something else that would provide something else and bring more to the table than just a single role of assassin. Because from what I can tell even if people lock themselves into a role, it isn’t necessarily something that can never be changed. you don’t have to be a tank and always pick and get items and skills related to tanking and etc


(Master of Eeveelution) #11

I mained Deande during the open beta and I was highly impressed. I don’t think she needs a rework or a buff, I think more people need to learn how to play her or just accept that she doesn’t suit everybody.
I saw many Deande players use her as a lead slayer and that simply is not what she is, she’s not like Rath or Phoebe where they can charge in and chain kills, she’s best played from the backline throwing her fans to deal enough damage to either sneak in for a quick kill or force the target back. You have to be patient and opportunistic, but when that opportunity comes you have to be sure you’ll get the kill then take your shot quickly before the enemy team realises what you’ve done.
I think her ult is great, once again you have to be patient it’s not a guaranteed kill like Rath’s or Phoebe’s but when your enemy has low health you sneak in and strike before they can escape. It also doubles as an assisting attack with CC, if you see a major threat who you can’t beat in a 1-on-1 like Ambra or Galilea just call out to your team and stun lock the target with your ult while they focus their attacks as well. Once the threat is down you press on and make an advance before they respawn, Deande works well when she has free roam of the map and can control her own killing zone. She’s great on Incursion but is also a slow starter so again patience is key to playing her. Once you get to level 5 she’s near unstoppable.
I’ve gone 10-0, 12-0, 16-2, 17-5 and 19-6 with Deande and even in games where I didn’t get a lot of kills I didn’t die a lot if at all, she’s best at holding the defensive line and waiting for an enemy to make that first advance or eventually a fatal mistake that you can capitalise on.
She’s not for everyone and I love that, if she’s reworked or buffed then she wont be an advanced character anymore and she’ll just become another Rath or Phoebe, there are multiple melee slayers but there’s only one Deande :slight_smile:


(Master of Eeveelution) #12

In review I think Deande is perfect, her slow attack speed and low damage per hit were exactly what I expected and I worked around that by using her thrown fans as her primary attack and her melee as a finisher.
If the damage of Blink Storm was increased or it activated instantly you’d have complaints that it’s an unavoidable guaranteed kill, for now it requires skill and finesse to use and if you see it coming you can back up and use Deande’s own pseudo-stun on herself for that duration to your advantage, this emphasises cloaking and fighting through stealth instead of head-to-head combat. She doesn’t need a healer or a tank in support to win fights, she doesn’t need a rework or a buff to outperform opponents in PvP, she just needs patience and skill to master.


#13

I don’t think the fan throw is supposed to be her main attack. So far among the various peoples who said she was “fine”, either they were using the throwing fan as the main attack or they were using the mutation for the uppercut.

I’d say that this confirm what I thought, the main problem of deande (and maybe the only one?) is her dps with normal melee attacks. I personally think that increasing a little her attack speed with normal melee would be enough, but that may cause the uppercut modifier to be too strong? So maybe increasing damage instead. I don’t think she needs a lot. She’s already definitely playable.


(Master of Eeveelution) #14

I don’t use the uppercut mutation and the thrown fan is her secondary attack. I use it as her primary in the sense that I use it more often than the melee to chip away at roaming enemy Battleborn and deter their advance. The melee is the primary in the sense that it’s the primary damage dealing basic attack, but still I don’t think anything with her needs a buff. If her attack speed and/or damage were increased she’d become another front-line melee slayer, as I said there’s already at least three of those we don’t need another. Deande’s playstyle is unique and could be most closely likened to that of Caldarius and Mellka, she’s how she is because she’s an “advanced” character, you’re not supposed to be able to wreck with her the first time you use her and it’s not supposed to be easy for everyone to play as her, that’s the whole point. If she’s buffed she’ll just become another boring generic character that everyone will use and be able to do so easily and those who did spend the time to master will be the ones who lose out.

If she doesn’t suit you then that’s fine but there are 24 (So far) other Battleborn to play as, we who use her as our main like her the way she is and I doubt I’m the only Deande main who would be disappointed if she were to be buffed in any way as then she’d only cater to the lesser or lazier players who didn’t have the skill or patience to master her before. No offense meant to you as I don’t know you, just my opinion and a generalisation.


#15

I don’t want her to be a frontline melee, that’s not her style and it shouldn’t be changed. Slightly increasing her melee damage (either directly or by attack speed) shouldn’t change her play style.
I may be wrong but we should be able to play deande as a melee that also can throw fan, rather than using her as a character who throw fan and can also melee, if you see what I mean. It’s really cool that she can be played alternatively with throwing fans, but her melee damage concerns me.
I didn’t have the uppercut modifier unlocked during the open beta so couldn’t test that, but without it, her raw dps seemed a tad too low for a squishy melee character.


(nearbritt) #16

Hmm, I see that there is a side to keep her the way she is at present (at least from the end of the beta) because she is just a complex character that requires more skill to use towards a more useful degree so that it feels fun and satisfying while not being overly op (more or less maybe I added a few things) And then there is a side who feel she is alright attack/skill wise but maybe a buff towards attack speed or something could up her melee DPS or something around those lines. There are also people who feel that (like me) a rework may be necessary but at least for me I just want to be able to play her without having to feel that (as someone said) using her Secondary attack as her primary attack, which looking at it from an experienced viewpoint of playing a vast amount of different games isn’t necessarily bad if somehow her primary attack and secondary attack worked in tangent or was like a combo, similar to how caldarius’s are.
I do acknowledge as I did from the beginning that it might just be me, and for me to think that if I can play other complex or advanced characters relatively easy after 1-3 games that should apply to them all. But I do feel like there should be a basic flow of basic level play with her that give me that satisfaction from playing her that is the same or similar to playing her with full potential.
I guess you could say that I feel as I’m putting more effort into playing her and still not enjoying playing her as she was during the beta on a consistent basis.And that for such complexity it did not feel as if my effort were rewarded.
(To put an example when I first played the beta on my ps4 I played thorn first and I was not feeling her but I did not believe it was the character and knew it was mostly me and moved on to find a character I could like using and learn to play, which ended up being op Ambra (haha…>.>) once I moved to play with some friends on the Xbox I saw thorn player who was both good and bad as they were either experienced and using her or new and just starting out with her. But I never touched her (for various reason) and knew I could play her play her and use her later on and not have the same experience as I did at first. I also played Ghalt and found a terribly delightful fun way to use his kit and tried out the various augmentations and mutations and realized that even at first it was a matter of adjustment but once I found my own tempo I could enjoy the way I played even if sometimes I choose a path that limited the scope of what I could do in team fights or smaller skirmishes)


#17

From what I’ve played with as Deande, I believe that she does not need a buff. I will admit that at first I thought her melee was to weak but after some more playing I realized I was using her like a brawler when she is not.

She is meant to attack those not aware of her present. This is where her cloak and decoy come into play. Using this with her ’ backstab’ helix option and the natural damage buff after coming out of cloak is where she really shines.

Increasing her base damage will push these other abilities to the level of people crying OP.

She excels at hit and run tactics. Her burst dash is excellent at pushing pursuers away and reducing their output.

As for her Ult; I loved it for locking down players. Whiles its damage is low. It’s ability to hold players still is unparalleled. I loved running into a group of players, leading with dash, going to holo when noticed then running around behind them and activating Ult. By the time they are released most of them died from turret fire, minion damage, or other players. It is a thing if beauty to see multiple red death beams shoot up.

Deande is the only character I played where I really felt like I outsmarted another player when I beat them rather then just a race to see who could do more abilities.


(Master of Eeveelution) #18

I think this is spot on and I agree wholeheartedly except for one thing; I didn’t like her ‘Backstab’ skill. The lack of consistency made it hard to use, sometimes your decoy would be tag-teamed and destroyed immediately while other times it would survive for the full duration. Then there’s her passive which you mentioned. More often than not I found that when my decoy expired or I started attacking an enemy from behind they’d turn around and I wouldn’t get the full benefit from that skill so I opted for the opposite skills to slow enemies until I unlocked the mutation which allowed me to either chain kills or pick up a quick sneaky kill then flee before I was exposed.

Right now we have people still complaining that Ambra and Galilea are “OP” even after their nerfs and some have been whinging about Rath since the CTT, I agree that if Deande is buffed even slughtly we’ll start seeing the same thing and the fun of using Deande will be taken away from the game as more and more players use her and the previously experienced and skilled players will be overrun with lesser players using Deande.


(Ghost Ninja) #19

Yes, after playing with her more i don’t think she really needs a buff. She just took some getting used to.

I still think her movement speed was on the low side though. It was annoying to see my teammates outrun me so easily when meltdown matches would start, especially when someone was Ambra (why is she so fast???).

Besides that I think that Burst Dash could use a bit of tinkering. It just feels a little clunky at times.

All in all i would say Deande is one of the more balanced and well put together Battleborn.


#20

While I wouldn’t mind a movement speed increase, I think a lot of deande’s helix options make up for this.

I think Silf_One put it best. If she gets a buff we will see a lot more people use her simple based on base damage. Hopefully they keep her as is and let us Deande players continue be underestimated.