Kitru's Totally Objective Guide to Rath

(Jennerit Supremacist) #21

I agree that the slow is usually the best choice but Waveform is taken if you want to do team setups and combos, mainly in Incursion. Once you get Catastrophic Smash it lets you hit everyone sitting at a choke point with a knock up and a silence. From there, your team uses their skills (like Desecrate’s pull/damage amp, followed by someone’s ult) to set up a multi kill. It’s undoubtedly my least favorite way to play Rath (I enjoy Concussive Smash builds more) but it is effective. Boring for Rath, but effective.

(Awesome By Analysis) #22

No, it wouldn’t. I’m looking at the proportionate difference in performance, not the gross difference. The only way that an increased testing time would skew the results the way you’re suggesting is if I was looking at the gross difference.

If anything, the short “how long to kill something” time frame method is the least accurate for purposes of finding DPS differences because it ignores the abrupt (e.g. “non-smooth”) nature of Rath’s basic attack damage profile, both insofar as the rate of attacks isn’t evenly distributed as well as the actual damage not being the same for every attack (the finishing spin deals slightly more damage than the initial trio of attacks). Also, the TTK timer measures from the first hit to the last hit, ignoring the time a character spends starting up the attack (it’s irrelevant to a character like Rath, but it’s a major factor to someone like Montana).

Because there are so many uncontrolled variables that can influence damage dealt (e.g. both parties’ gear, the target’s helices, etc.) a short time frame “ceiling division” approach that just checks how long it takes to deal a short threshold of damage doesn’t give you a truly useful comparative measure.

(Magic is everything) #23

I can see your point. Admittedly, I haven’t given Waveform much of a shot (about 5 games at the most). I didn’t really like how it worked and never really bothered trying it out again.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #24

It’s fun to do once or twice but since it requires you and the entire team to do one thing repeatedly you to get bored of it really quickly. It’s honestly more fun to think of the combos then to actually do them. Triple knock up by working with Montana while OM drops an airstrike on everyone is one I did. I went against one that was Smash, sunspot (just for the amp), Desecrate, then SFP and Paradigm Shift (later Pillar Storm).

(PSN: SoloSmile (Lazy faff-about)) #25

Before I reply there seems to have been a portion of my post I wrote mentally but omitted during the write up. I find it actually rather important. Allow me to preface with this before I begin discussing your points in length.

One thing I can agree on 100% is Concussive Smash taken at level 1 is generally a bad idea. Crossblade marks a target (when Concussive is chosen) and an experienced or observant player (pretty much anyone still playing at this point) will catch on and make it far harder to succeed.

However what about at level 6? Or right before a key fight that can turn the tides?

Concussive Smash’s strengths’ lie more in the mind games and new gameplay options it provides over the other two options.

By avoiding to pick a level 1 helix, this opens you up to continue to use the classic Smash and allows you to do the more natural feeling Catalytic Smash to Crossblade combo.

Though, be aware. Advanced level players may pick up on the lack of slow on Crossblade or the width from Waveform Smash.

Even so, in a game as particle heavy as this and with so much going on, bets are good you can train your opponents to expect the traditional 1-2 and to not think twice when hit with a Crossblade at the key moment you swapped to Concussive Smash.

Concussive Smash is an important helix, I’d argue his most important helix and it shouldn’t be so easily dismissed. Unlike his rather straight forward helix’s, this one can open Rath up to be more than just one of the “easy” characters. IT dramatically changes your play style and can be a fresh experience on a familiar character.

More importantly (for you it seems) it shines just fine in PvE, perhaps more so than the Slowing Strike or Waveform Smash.
Damage is good, hard CC is amazing.

How did you test it? Alt-Alt-Alt etc? How I use it is more often to shorten the time it takes to get an AOE proc while also applying bonus Shield damage. More akin to 1-2-Alt, or 1-Alt,1-Alt, bypassing the pause delay from the third hit to the spin. To clarify I never said or alluded to it being better DPS. Just that individually the Alt hits for more than any one hit of the basic combo.

To elaborate more on my point, on “controlled”. Opposed to his angular slashes (that inhibit your FOV when swung) and 360* spin. His Alt is more in line with a jab/lunge/pierce. Think more like Phoebe’s basic autos.

Glad to contribute something! ^.^ I seem to be writing to myself more often than not around here.

Well that reply was in context to you saying:

I was providing contrary information regarding that Sentence. YOU can in fact hit enemies while in the air.

While juggling an enemy may come naturally, or even be obvious, this was presented as a guide and sharing information that opens Rath up to more tactics and means of engagement is always good.

You didn’t really reply or discuss any of the variable examples I shared on the positive uses of TfA.

I even provided some cons and positives for StW to better illustrate the viable option of taking either path. As opposed to your guides stance that level 3 is a one and done like level 2.

Seeing as you’re adamant on your point here, I won’t elaborate further.

That’s all well and good. You should have been more clear exactly when and where your suggestions and play style methods are to be used. This game is first and foremost a PvP game. It was made in the hopes of entering that lucrative Esports scene.

And if we’re being frank, how often do new players take the time to enter the BB Forums looking for advice on a character for Story mode?

You can sleep walk through most of it. That’s the environment where you can expect a player to experiment and get a feel for a character without concern to being competitive or efficient.

I’d wager more often than not, a player who reads a guide like yours is looking to get a better handle on the character and pick up on tips and tricks not immediately prevalent, suggestions, recommendations and advice for building a foundation to success with the character against ever increasing competent players.

I appreciate the discourse and opportunity to discuss Rath in a more in depth scenario. I also appreciate the reply, and input on my thoughts on Rath. Seeing as I’ve been sidelined from the larger discussion, I’ll stop adding my 2 cents here.

If you continue to reply, I’ll read it and assume we agreed to disagree on the more contested topics.

Cheers :+1:

(Awesome By Analysis) #26

It seems to me that you’re sidelining yourself. Your mindset seems to be purely PvP driven and almost entirely dismissive of anything PvE related. If that’s how you want to continue to think, feel free to leave because that’s not the kind of guide I’m interested in writing.

Keep in mind, just because you say something doesn’t mean that it will change my mind, nor does it mean that I dismiss it completely. If I don’t actively refute something it’s generally because I can see no point in adding more to the discussion. Most of the stuff here is my personal opinion and I proffer it to the community because I have been asked for it on numerous occasions. It’s naturally going to conflict with the opinions of others (this is true of my other guides; the advice for Alani used to be “GwtF or gtfo” and I broke ranks to say that I actually prefer Ww, and many people have followed suit, trying it out, and finding that it works extremely well), and most people are deeply invested in their personal strategies and choices. This is fine, but it doesn’t mean that I should feel compelled to change my own when it’s all entirely subjective.

(Natsume Ryu) #27

updated; rath triple combo+alt now better, but difficult (like benedicts reload clip).
@blainebrossart1 thoughts?

(Jennerit Supremacist) #28

I’ve been doing it for the past few weeks and it’s amazing. My damage dealt has been among the highest on my team recently, unless I’m teamed up with someone like Orendi, ISIC or Toby. Any Rath mains out there that aren’t spin cancelling need to start practicing it.

(Natsume Ryu) #29

Sorry, that was my own thoughts in there, what are your thoughts on the guide in general? :stuck_out_tongue:

(Jennerit Supremacist) #30

Oh, was it updated more than just the spin cancelling bit? I’ll give it another read.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #31

My opinion of it is the same. It’s a good guide for someone who want’s to pick up Rath but doesn’t cover the more advanced play of Rath.

(wisecarver) #32

There’s a lot of good debate here but something is missing that math can’t help with.
Any good Rath player has a massive movement style.
In both PvP and PvE I’ve been pretty awesome with his skills just by adding quick movements.

(PSN: Umbra073) #33

@blainebrossart1 @ZombiePizzaMan

What do you guys take at level 10 for PVP and why? Forgive me if it is mentioned earlier in the thread by I couldn’t find it by skimming it.

So I have maybe 30 games under my belt with Rath and am starting to play him more. By fighting Raths (including you Blaine), I’ve found sprint speed/CDR CC stacking to be a very effective playstyle. I don’t skirmish often just stack CC and get easy kills that way. With this playstyle I’ve found Rath’s ult to be very situational. So far I’ve only used his ult for trapping-beyond that I’m struggling to grasp the use of it.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #34

It depends on what I took at level 7.

If I have Evasive Maneuvers then the extra movement speed (while entertaining) is excessive so I end up taking Desperate Assault (extra damage with broken shield)

If I took To The Point then I take Dreadheart (extra movement speed).

Having the extra 30% increased movement speed, be it from Evasive Maneuvers or Dreadheart makes sticking to an enemy very easy which makes for easier kills. But having the movement speed from both is just excessive. The damage increase from Desperate Assault is great though and makes securing kills very easy.

I have three main gear loadouts for Rath right now (I’m constantly mixing it up and trying new things though)

[details=First: Mobility]
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[details=Second: Offense]
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[details=Third: Economy]
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My playstyle with Rath is very aggressive, provided my team can back me up. I usually have a say in most of my enemy’s deaths and more often then not I’ll have as many assists as the support on our team while still racking in kills (If you saw the screen shot I posted in the group chat a couple days ago, I had either a kill or assist in 30 of my enemy team’s 39 deaths). I’m usually only out damaged by certain few characters (ISIC, Toby, Ernest, Orendi, Thorn etc.)

With how long the cooldown on Dreadwind is, you need to be patient and wait for an opportunity to use it. Remember who has hard CC on the enemy team and is ready/close enough to interrupt you. People like to say that it’s lackluster or not lethal anymore but it does just over 1100 damage at level 5. It’s a great way to burst down a squishy that needs to die. It’s also great against characters that have no escape like Ghalt or Whiskey.

(PSN: Umbra073) #35

This is exactly how I’ve been using it. However, I’m sure I’m being too picky by waiting to pin squishys like Mikos with terrain. I’ve just been going with either the damage or overshield at level 10 based on how my supports have been performing. (Using essentially your mobility loadout and the extra dmg at level 7).

Based off this I think I’ll start going with more movement speed at 7 and try to continuously go damage at 10 and hopefully more play time will bring confidence there.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #36

My deciding factor for level 7 is dependent on my gear. If I’m using my mobility then I’m going for Evasive Maneuvers. If I’m using damage then I’m using To The Point.

You don’t need to pin them to the terrain. Practice head juggling, bounce them on your head a couple of times while you are using Dreadwind beneath them. They’ll get caught up in most if not all of the attack.

(PSN: Umbra073) #37

Thanks, will do!

(Magic is everything) #38

Damn I’m slow, been messing around with the BL2 community patch a bit too much it seems.

@Beatrix I 100% agree with what he said about level 10, it really just comes down to what you take at 7. Though I really want to bring up a piece of gear that I’ve been messing around with a lot that’s managed to do wonders for me.

That of course being this:

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Since health gear gives a set value as opposed to a percent based one, this ends up increasing the overall hp of squishy characters like Rath by a tremendous amount. This piece of gear in particular is essentially a permanent 490 health increase since the condition will always be active when it actually matters (nobody grabs shield pen, so you don’t have to worry about that). Not to mention, this gear perfectly synergizes with Evasive Maneuvers and Desperate Assault since they have the same condition. Overall, I recommend giving this a shot if you have one already. I’ve managed to live through some ridiculous situations thanks to this thing. However, I would advise you to avoid this thing like the plague if it comes with a flaw. You never have a good reason to run negative sprint speed on Rath no matter how much health it gives you in return.

(PSN: Umbra073) #39

Great idea! I’ll definitely look into this. Though just to be sure, does it actually add health when your health capacity is increased?
I’m assuming the lifesteal will take care of this issue regardless.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #40

Oh, yeah. That vest is amazing. I run it on my El Dragon loadout. I’ve used it on several of my Rath builds in the past and I have it on a few experimental builds.[quote=“Beatrix, post:39, topic:1553068”]
does it actually add health when your health capacity is increased?

It does add to your health when your shield breaks. When your shield recharges it goes down by 210 points. If you are below 210 points it won’t kill you when your shield recharges. It’ll bring you to exactly 1 point of health.

Interesting note: if you have exactly 210 points (or what ever role you got for it on your gear) when it starts recharging, it’ll bring you to zero health, but it won’t kill you.