Once he gets heal-chair and network, he’s amazing. Before then, he’s poo on a stick.
A good character with an AOE will force him out of his rifts, yes, but once he gets heal-chair it doesn’t matter that much.
Kleese is very, very good in the right hands, but he can certainly be addressed.
Rift has like 600-800 health. It’s not Ambra sunspot level. You put it in your base behind the wall and minion wave melts. No AoE will destroy that early game. You can’t push a Kleese team at level 1 to 5 so his early weakness isn’t an issue because it becomes a “Level and outscale” situation.
Add in Ambra or any other support who can heal early game and the shield penetration idea goes POOF because the team now has the missing healer and after 5, has twice as much healer that the wohle team will regen to full after 5-7 seconds, assuming you can penetrate his shop to begin with.
I mained him in Beta and abused Ambra-Kleese so much. Even after nerfs, it’s still ridiculous. Now, I’m starting to see some premade abusing it and hey, it’s as annoying and strong as pre-nerf Galilea comp. It needs to be toned down and fortunately, Gearbox is looking at Kleese anyway.
Double support comp dominate the game atm so treating Kleese as the only support doesn’t exactly work because in peak comp condition, Kleese has no weakness. This is an issue that’s created from giving a support ability to scale into a burst cc healing support mage. There’s nothing he’s bad at once you fill that only hole of “He can’t heal pre-5”.
And it’s not a teamwork thing either. It’s just “Win from BB select” because your comp will always be far more powerful that other comps.
This is a game design problem ATM, IMO and it’s only a problem because all of the supports also do a lot of damage… but once picks/bans get implemented, no team is going to ever get their hands on Kleese and Ambra.
You can do this as him but his rifts don’t do much damage and even take 3 seconds in between to attack. I use his rifts to keep my shields up and attack but the people I play against notice and stop me. A Ghalt for example knew what I was doing so he camped there waiting for me but I went a different route. The other map even allows all characters to the back door without a leap float fly etc. it’s a valid tactic esp when the other team is being annoying by 5v1 or just picking purely op characters.
Side note his char needs a buff so he can control its direction mid flight and cancel it. I’ve got hit and accidentally flosted away off a ledge since I can cancel the movement nor could I control it. He’s an extremely vulnerable mainly bc his turtle speed and huge hitbox. Plus his taser which is his only defense against melee characters uses the same energy as his chair. He’s not easy to play. You really have to pick his fights. His 3 mutation is amazing though. I never not pick it now. It’s hard as hell to hit sometimes but it hits hard. Very high risk very high reward
You want to stop double supports you need characters that have healing/shielding debuffs to apply to people.
Skill hits a person, they receive -50% healing for 3-5 seconds, stuff like that. Hell even a skill where it causes all healing to become damage instead for a short duration.
Also an Execute is good, although Kelvins Chomp is a psuedo one at the moment.
Or it’s an issue with a character beign “Jack of all” and also “Master of all” at the same time.
Right now, if you’re rate all the support together by burst damage,sustain damage utility, sustain heal, and burst heal, Kleese can pretty much 1st place all of them with a few in 2nd place with a small commentary saying that “Heal is after level 5”.
Just try it 1st place and 2nd place
Highest sustain damage : Kleese > Ambra thanks to the low cool down 100% shield mortar nuke, rift damage, and snipe shot
Highest Burst damage : Kleese > Ambra because black hole to a mortar is pretty much a 100-0 far faster than Ambra’s.
Highest Burst Heal: Reyna > Kleese since all other supports don’t really have an option to give someone a quick burst shield/heal. Reyna is better than Kleese simply because Reyna is a mobile single-player version.
Higher Sustain Heal: Miko>Kleese (“Heal after 5”)
Highest Utility: Kleese > Reyna or Miko (CC, map control, zone control. Kleese has all of it)
The only think he’s 4th place in is probably his in-combat mobility being lower than the other char cause he’s a fatass. If that’s all you lose to be in 1st place and 2nd place at everything a support should do, that’s a trade-off anyone will be willing to give.
If you want to look at a char who has issues with early support ability in a solo support comp, you look at Reyna, not Kleese.
None of that will stop Kleese because he doesn’t scale from support to support. He scales from support into Utility mage.
Same goes to Ambra.
That’s why Double support is so ridiculous atm. Playing Ambra doesn’t even feel like you’re playing a support. You’re playing a fire mage who can heal for some reason so you throw in another support to fill the gap and suddenly, you have a perfect team with huge heal, huge damage and huge utility.
Then you look at Kleese. He follows this exact pattern. He starts off with a few support ability and as you scale, you don’t just pick up support stuffs. You pick up more and more damage and find yourself killing everyone instead.
This isn’t like Reyna. Reyna in a double sup is still a support. She doesn’t turn into a huge damage threat. Everything she does is all about saving and supporting. Same goes to Miko. Miko doesn’t turn into a damage dealer. Miko still focus on healing, CCing and preventing all melee from being playables.
This is an issue created from designing supports like Ambra and Kleese who are 75% mage, 25% support but ends up having enough number to function like a normal support.
I don’t know man, I’m a master of kleese and he’s good but I’ve never had an issue against a Kleese. He’s not good on forward mobility, he excels at turtling and setting up spots to dig in and progress from. Outside of his laser shot I don’t really fear his skillsets. If you don’t let him build his nest up he’s not really a threat.
Even if he builds a nest, there are plenty of characters that can decimate them quickly, OM ult can clear you out real quick.
Maybe you play in a 5 man or something but even if you do, I can’t really take everything at face value. There’s no competitive matchmaking, everything is blind pick and the matchmaking itself is more likely to throw your 5 man against 5 solos than another 5 man.
I think we need draft picks before we say anyone needs more nerfs outside what is already planned.
Even with Draft pick, if the Kleese is picked, are you going to pick Ambra Miko and Reyna away from him so he can’t go 2 support and abuse having no weaknesses for the other side to play against outside hoping the Kleese is bad and run out to die over and over?
Kleese as a solo support is bearable since you can actually do something 1 to 4 before he gets network and heal. Ending before he scales is how you beat Kleese anyway
But Kleese in a double support is opashell and and it’s just a thing with him and him alone. Even Reyna and Ambra don’t suddenly spike in overall power this much. Reyna is supposed to be the go-to double support choice but even Kleese can outperform that, while providing MORE.
Just go do some Ambra-Kleese and enjoy how much turtling and sieging you can do without trying while 100-0 all squishies because "You’re a support so squishies deserve to die."
I abused it, I loved it because your team has two nests the enemies have to deal with, making it impossible to shut either support down completely.
I went against it, I hated it and wish it never existed because it’s ridiculous and gives the other side no room to play at all without getting outscaled while being sieged.
The game will introduce even more support later (Alani being the next one) so this issue has to be solved by dealing with Kleese himself. His snipe is getting nerfed but why am I still allowed to deal 600-700 damage with a Mortar in the early game as a support? Even Deande, who is an assassin with similiar shield to damage helix, only benefits from HALF of it at melee range.
If they institute picks and bans, Miko would be perma-banned. Even if Ambra and Kleese get through the ban, then whichever one picks up Kleese, the other team should be picking up Ambra.
Reyna+Kleese both suffer from early game issues.
Sooo…pick backdoor people and hit the sentry and nests from side tunnels? Benedict strikes me as huge nest counter right off the bat.
Like I said man, I think you need to wait to see how things shake out. Beta was beta, its not set in stone.
We will probably get Alani by then. Remember that this game won’t end at 4 supports.
And the whole thing is all about “Banning the comp and specfically that comp.” That doesn’t make it anymore balance. Galilea comp gets nerfed. Should we have waited and just learn to ban Gal instead of nerfing her?
The point is, the Kleese/Ambra wombo combo won’t get through any competent ban/draft, just like Galilea/Miko won’t.
Picks and bans helps counter wreck-your-face comps by its very nature.
Kleese is good, but he’s still not OP, and with a perfect team comp he’s hard to beat, but a perfect team comp only happens currently because strategic picks and bans don’t exist.
Hitting Kleese nest means you’re not hitting Ambra’s nest. If Kleese nest is broken, he goes to Ambra for heal and set up a new one, If Ambra’s nest is broken, she goes to Kleese nest for full shield and heal. This is of course assuming they don’t just throw two of the strongest AoE ult together on your team and insta 100-0 all your squishies.
See why the Kleese-Ambra comp is so dumb?
I already had to deal with this comp on Live. It was a painful experience even if I know how I must proceed to fight it, on the same level as fighting 2 sup 1 Gal.
He’s even getting nerfed this patch and that he will still be on watch. They already know he is a potential issue.
You act like sunspots and rifts have no CD.
Push in and these nests never have time to build up. We can argue theories all day, it’s pointless until draft mode to discuss balance outside of what GBX has already outlined.
Do other big games like LoL simply leave the comp up for grab and not nerf it? They don’t. One of the comp they had in the past was 3 supports with a Soraka mid. They didn’t leave it up. They gutted it in a month even if you could ban the supports or pick them yourselves.
If a certain strat has to be forever prevented from being picked, the comp is not okay. It means the strat is way too powerful to exist in the game.
Right now, it’s either Ambra or Kleese who are the two core of the comp. Out of these 2, GBX decided to say Kleese is a potential issue. Although it might not be specific to this very comp, guess who’s getting watched and nerfed anyway?
Here’s something you should remember. Never, ever, assume what you main is balance. I main Kleese, Benedict, Thorn and Ambra and I won’t be surprised if one of them gets nerfed next week.
you keep saying he’s being watched and nerfed… but the nerf is for his laser over-damaging unexpectedly and his taser shocking through camo… not for him being “so OP”
And the reason I mention picks and bans is because it may be an OP combo, but I’ve never had an issue with it… give me a ranked playlist with picks and bans and we’ll see how well the combos perform.
ROFLSTOMPING randoms with a dual support team comp into a bland pick proves nothing to me though.
I have no problem dealing with Kleese, I see why the nerf they have scheduled is coming, I don’t see him being an issue afterwards. If picks and bans were active, the dual AOE support comp into a team that doesn’t have a solution for it wouldn’t matter. I’d just pick OM as a counter to Kleese and throw another AOE in to deal with Ambra’s “nest”
It may be wrecking right now, in the situation we’re picking into, but that doesn’t mean anything IMHO. By himself he’s fine, in any other team comp he’s fine, and the OP team comp you’re claiming can be picked into to be countered quite easily, which to me means it’s unusual and is surprising people in a blind pick situation.
I kill Kleese every time I see one but I also play Kleese a lot and have all his lore done, so I understand all I have to do is break his rifts and bye bye Kleese. Even at five, his health chair doesn’t heal himself, even if he’s turtle up with someone, he’ll have to ditch out if you break those rifts or get killed for it.
I don’t even understand how he was able to hover around op’s base dropping rifts and getting away with it. He’s so slow, he should have died if the team was paying attention, and even if he barely escaped repeatedly, his rifts shouldn’t have been able to do much if they destroyed them. The rifts aren’t tanky, they aren’t sunspot weak, thank god, but they still die pretty fast.
Sounds like they basically let Kleese break their Sentry, lol.
Any decent Ghalt will eat Kleese’s lunch all game. Haven’t played with/against Kleese or the comp your talking about enough to comment. However, I do find Ghalt to be the anti-Kleese.