Kushan (player) vs Hiigarans (Expert CPU)

Hi all,

Some people have been grumbling about HW1 races not being very good. Mostly the fighters and corvettes and the frigates and, well, I guess the destroyers and heavy cruisers, too.

A lot of them have fair points, but I wanted to point out that HW2 is different than HW1. And, well, HW1 in HW2 is all sorts of different.

Long story short, I used Kushan to kick Hiigaran butt. You can watch this poorly encoded video below:

[TFL]ebil_pigeon vs Expert Hiigaran CPU on Hostilities End

(I apologize for cutting out after 16 mins, my recorder program is not the best. What you missed was a bunch of assault frigates and a handful of ion cannons blowing up a shipyard, carrier, and flagship. In that order.)

To summarize what I did, since I have a tendency to be neurotic while playing HW…

  1. Rushed frigates
  2. Built some support frigates and assault frigates
  3. Hyperspaced them over (reminiscent of a favorite HW2 strategy, the hypertorp)
  4. Eliminated bombers, ignored everything else, and targetted collectors
  5. Mopped up the Hiigaran’s broke butt, with a few ion cannon frigates thrown in

I’m not here to put down any players; I don’t even claim to be that great of a HW2 player (my good days were in Cataclysm). I just wanted to throw in some positive encouragement for those still clinging to HW1 races. They’re not great, the balance is off, but you can make it work. Let go of your HC walls and fighter balls and start dissecting how the HW2 system works; I know that sounds blasphemous but frankly you’re in the HW2 engine and that’s how things are.

Good luck everyone! Hope to see more of you on multiplayer.

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But we didn’t buy “Homeworld Remastered” to play Homeworld 2 with Homeworld 1 Graphics.

And to add to that, try that against a player instead of a computer. I think you will find the results to be very different

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Actually it’d be easier against a player because the expert AI cheats a little. But I’ve been putting in my hours on multiplayer. I used to do random but I’m going to go Taiidan all the time now. I’d be happy to play anyone.

Are you an experienced multiplayer?

Rushing an AI is not an accurate indication of balance - Frigates are only good against small craft now anyhow - they get owned by Hiigaran and Vagyr Corvettes very quickly - HW1 Frigates suck right now.

Hiigarans and Vagyr own Taiidan and Kushan overall. They outclass them heavily in early to mid game at the moment; if you can survive long enough to get some Destroyers out, that is the only way to beat them in a fair fight it seems.

Cheap rush tactics, are just that.

I get the feeling you did not really watch the video—which is fine, but I think if you wanted to evaluate my skill, you could have simply watched how I played and handled my fleet. Outside of that, the only other way to know how good anyone is is to play a game with them.

If you want to discuss strategies in this thread, I’d be happy to, but I’m not interested in talking about how much HW:R is not HW, nor am I interested in substantiating how well I play. If you don’t feel HW1 races are viable, by all means, let’s talk.

Not to mention ‘expert’ CPU is anything but I can beat two by myself. IF we had record option I would have as shadowplay imho is simply bad …maybe go fraps.

I don’t think you can claim rushing is cheap. Every single iteration of HW had its own version of rushing, from scout/int fighter balls to mimic dumping to hypertorps.

I’m not arguing they’re balanced; in fact, I do claim HW1 strikecraft are useless curently, minus amassing bombers which, frankly, is not viable. Light vettes seem to do well against HW2 strikecraft, but I’d have to get more time in and believe me, it’s not for a lack of trying.

I have been a proponent of reducing the effectiveness of pulsar vettes, which have been a problem since even HW2, imo. They tear through strikecraft, vettes, and even frigates with disturbing ease.

HW frigates do not suck in the context of HW2. They are pretty average, which if you compare to HW1 then yes, they suck plenty now. That being said, they’re on par until HW2 races get upgrades, which should be rebalanced.

For the most part, I get the impression HW1 races nosedive late game, even without upgrades, because BCs and destroyers are easier and quicker to construct, while HW1 destroyers and heavy cruisers take forever and don’t seem to match.

Claiming “nothing works” is no help to balancing. Find things that work, even if most things don’t, and we can help narrow down what needs to be retweaked.

I totally agree, I hope we get some late game balance I wish they focused that late game buff in frigates and destroyers, cuz they are the core of the old hw1

I’d be more impressed to see this, actually, given how fast expert CPUs seem to build. If you have time, a quick SS of your ending stats for a 1v2 would suffice.

Low starting RUs, Kharam Wreck, and vs expert HW2 races … and simply SS the ending stats would be great. Not a challenge, just be interested in seeing you do it. You can use any race you want.

I’ve been doing benchmarking on rush tactics and builds.

It takes 7 minutes to get two hyperspace ready assault frigates out as Kushan.
It only takes 5 to put out a hyperspace ready torp, with a second and third coming shortly.

I’ve not tested them against eachother…but we can all agree that torps in your base at 5 is 2 minutes too soon for a balanced defense.

Though you have plenty of resources as kushan and could easily build scouts to distract them a while.

When i take a break from actually playing HW2 for the first time ever and from multi-player I will oblige you. However it is no great feat the CPU tends to research and harvest faster and if you play passive with it (them) you are in fact gonna get steam rolled. Used to beat 2 CPU’s very often to stay in shape in '99 and imo the CPU back then was a little tougher on hard or better. If you are gonna passively wait it out on a larger map GL is all i have to say. Fighter rush from each capital ship with salvs close behind. A broke CPU cannot build or frankly anything.

Oh I see—HW1 and HW2 expert CPUs are different, I think; I was fighting the latter. I do not remember playing many HW1 CPU games; mostly went straight to WON. :smile:

A solid hypertorp can be pulled out at about 4 mins, yes. Proper scouting often has the hypertorp jump right into a pack of bombers, though.

It’s harder to know what HW1 races are doing—HW2 races have a fat frigate module onboard so you can predict. But HW1 is a little slow getting bombers, so there’s that.

It’d be interesting to see.

the thing i notice most about HW1 teching is that capship teching is linear. you have to get frigates before destroyers and so on. But HW2 divvied it up. This makes rushing some things much easier for HW2 ships than HW1.

I have noticed something though. HW1 resourcing seems superior and it is very easy to quickly get a ton of scouts to support your firs 25 interceptors. (five squadrons of interceptors in HW2).

I plan to do some ship on ship testing to help deal with balance issues. Just need to find someone willing to do the work with me.

Excellent work, and they say homeworld is a “slow game” Lol. My question to you ebil is, have you tried this against a vaygr comp? because right now It’s still in my opinion that they hold the edge at this point, laser corvettes just eat anything up. Right now I have the most trouble dealing with Vaygr, and being a vaygr player myself I find myself at an odds with how to compete with them. There’s also the issue that once HW2 factions upgrade their ships, it becomes a lot more difficult to do the damage you need to do.

Thanks for the video, it was very informative.

HW1 resourcers carry 500 rus, HW2 carry 400, can’t say which is faster yet but that may have a bit to do with it.