Layers of RNG is NOT Replay Value

Tr/dl: Adding layers of rng just makes the playerbase bitter from farming without progress. And adding stats doesn’t do anything, because dmg is the only stat that matters.

I’m starting to think that GearBox is taking the same approach that Massive took with The Division 2. Every piece of gear had stat values attached to them. To be clear, Bl3 isn’t nearly as bad as at least we get fixed stat values and not a range.

This isn’t even just with stats or anointments. Farming an enemy that has a chance of spawning, to have a chance at a drop, to have a chance of having relevant stats is a bit much.

I get what both teams were trying to achieve with a fluid meta, but in both games the scaling of the enemies means that the meta is only ever going to be damage.

So that means all of these other stats are worthless. So all the extra stat possibilities do is lower the probability of actually getting something useful.

Agree, disagree, thoughts?

16 Likes

Agreed. bring back the grinder and make it possible to “make” a weapon using other traits or whatever to get a desired gun. doesnt have to be too complicated but it would make all the guns useful cause u could grind up to something good

4 Likes

I disagree for 2 reasons…

  1. Once you get what you want then the game becomes boring. Like it or not…Loot based RPGs are built around chasing for items.

  2. You can always trade for what you want. That’s the main difference between a game like Borderlands and Division. The only way to get god rolled items in Divisio is to hit the RNG lottery or be in a group that hits the rng lottery.

3 Likes

There’s another, long form discussion about loot and layers of RNG:

https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/dedicated-loot-pools-miss-the-mark/4135067/7?u=tuxedopengu

Check it out and post your thoughts!

1 Like

There are way better ways to hunt for said items though than to spend hours mindlessly killing the same enemy over and over and over and over with the hope of maybe kind of but probably not getting anything even remotely like the roll or parts you want .

This is not enjoying the game and its various levels and enemies and worlds. And by the time I was done getting that 94% sham in borderlands 2 and a shredfier in fire element , I was suddenly so burned out from the hundreds of hours farming that I lost interest in the game completely

Why not keep the same loot hunt but instead each day announce a “bounty board” of enemies we can kill to get rare kind of currency, that we can then trade in at Earl or whatever to buy whatever legendary item we want?

Same idea , you kill stuff to get the stuff you want, only far less tedious, more enjoyable, and let’s you actually enjoy the varied environments and enemies of the game rather than tiny minuscule version of it

4 Likes

Both are fair points. Borderlands struggles with replayable content in general imo.

I don’t disagree with your 2nd point. I just don’t believe in using outside sources to make the experience inside the game more enjoyable (ie. if I have to resort to that, something’s off).

But I acknowledge most of that is just me being stubborn.

1 Like

Thats basically the same thing…instead of farming for gear you’re farming for currency.

It’s just a different perspective. At the end of the day farmers dont care about variety…they care about efficiency. They will just do what gives them the most resources the fastest.

It results in the same thing…people farming the same stuff over and over again.

Also is anyone can spend currency and get a 94% Sham then the Sham loses all of its value becuase everyone has it. If the chase items become the norm then there are no items that can be considered special.

No it doesnt , because not everyone will kill whatever large number of enemies to save up and also choose to spend on sham besides something else they may want.

It’s the same exact amount of Effort , except one has variety where everyday you fight and kill different things across different environments rather than the same exact ****ing enemy over and over and over and over.

In other words, if it takes 5 hours of gameplay to have a statistically significant chance to get a legendary to drop from a boss , then it can take 5 hours of gameplay to save as much currency to buy it.

Same time, same effort , but honestly which one would YOU rather do ?

1 Like

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. - Bruce Lee.

Sorry but fighting a variety if different enemies slows you down in terms of farming. You have to constantly change your weapons, your build, you have to play everyday instead of having dedicated sessions, and again…it dilutes your sense of satisfaction becuase every single person can get the same thing.

“I have a 94% sham!” So what…now everyone else has one too. And that not even mentioning B3 has no anti-cheat whatsoever…further undermining this system.

So to answer your question…if I’m farming for gear I would rather create a build that’s the best at getting what I want…if a boss has something i want my build will be focused on killing that one boss or enemy the fastest way possible. To the point you can become a glass cannon because you have the routine down to a science.

1 Like

What a circle of illogic. If you’re chasing items in this sort of game, then they’re presumably items that you want to use; however, if you get those items then you’ll stop playing. I’m not saying it’s necessarily incorrect, but it is rather absurd.

2 Likes

I just really badly want a way to change stats on Class Mods…

3 Likes

What can I tell you… people who make these game are not stupid. These types of games manipulate Dopamine and pleasure neurotransmitters in the brain. Once you get what you want you’re not going to get the same amount of pleasure you where at chasing the item…which leads to you chasing something else.

I’m not saying once you get it you’ll automatically turn off the game and never play it again… you will get bored eventually becuase its human nature to seek self improvement. If youre already min maxed what are you even playing for at that point? And if the item is too easy to get then you will also not get the same type of pleasure random chance provides. That’s why people gamble and play the lottery instead of invest in real life.

3 Likes

Ok buddy. Yeah your right let’s spend hours killing the same enemy over and over again and experience less than 1% of the games levels and environments and variety , instead of spreading out that same process but across multiple enemies and environments. Makes a ton of sense. Thanks for clearing that up .

4 Likes

Like the 2013 BL2 $100,000 hunt where once a bounty was fulfilled (say 100,000 skags) a target boss would get a unique drop (Grog Nozzzle from the Gold Golem) for a certain period of time.

1 Like

You can keep saying the same thing over and over again, you have my answer. You could tell me why my line of thinking is wrong. Maybe you’ll have a chance at changing my mind

I already seen these enemies and environment before…its called the main campaign. I’m not going to get a rush of exctiment fighting a Maliwan enemy or an animal slightly different than the previous animal.

All for the goal of having the same build everyone else has becuase apparently everyone needs to have the same loot.

To me…that will make the game worse. But you’re welcome to change my mind.

Well if you seek answers to all of life’s questions then find all the answers to life’s questions, do you continue to look for the answers to all of life’s questions?

Looters primarily survive on the pursuit of loot. Hence so much RNG. People aren’t going to play a game for 2000 hours just to see the story over and over again.

1 Like

So before we move on…let’s entertain your idea.

You have 100 magic currency items you farmed…you’re at Crazy Earl’s about to buy the best item in the game. Is that items stats fixed or random.

I guarantee you if the stats are random you’re going to get alot pissed off people if they spent 5 hours farming for an inferior item. And if it’s fixed there is not uniqueness in the game becuase everyone has the exact same thing.

It’s a lose lose situation.

Life being the analogous game, the more relevant question is whether you’d put those answers to use or simply die.

1 Like

EVERY game “struggles” with re-playability. The fact is, most people don’t play through ANY game more than once - and many games don’t even get finished once by many of people that play it. This includes some of the most highly acclaimed games like the Witcher 3 and Red Dead Redemption II. It includes MMORPGs; while tens of millions of gamers have played World of Warcraft, for example, that’s only a small fraction of the hundreds of millions that have tried it and found they didn’t care for it.

For any game, things click for you personally or they don’t. The first time I played Borderlands 1 it didn’t click for me, I thought it was good but nothing special, and I played it again more as a matter of playing a game I had that wasn’t WoW, which was my main game at the time but I needed a break from it. Second time I played Borderlands it fell into place for me and I’ve been a massive fan of the franchise since. I’ve played the games for thousands of hours, and I know the hundreds I’ve played BL3 are just the beginning for me.

It clicks - for me. It has great re-playability. For me. And there are many like me. To say that it flat out doesn’t have re-playability is to ignore the fact that it doesn’t for YOU, and, this is crucial, YOU aren’t EVERYONE. There are people that make a living off of streaming Borderlands games for audiences of thousands, that post YouTube videos watched by hundreds of thousands of people, and have been watched by that many people for years. The evidence is out there, all you have to do is look, that your personal opinion about the re-playability of Borderlands 3 is nothing more than your personal feelings about the game, and making sweeping statements that imply anything else is simply wrong.

4 Likes

It would depend on the answers. Much of it is perspective. Would you view eternal life as a blessing or a curse?