Layers of RNG is NOT Replay Value

So before we move on…let’s entertain your idea.

You have 100 magic currency items you farmed…you’re at Crazy Earl’s about to buy the best item in the game. Is that items stats fixed or random.

I guarantee you if the stats are random you’re going to get alot pissed off people if they spent 5 hours farming for an inferior item. And if it’s fixed there is not uniqueness in the game becuase everyone has the exact same thing.

It’s a lose lose situation.

Life being the analogous game, the more relevant question is whether you’d put those answers to use or simply die.

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EVERY game “struggles” with re-playability. The fact is, most people don’t play through ANY game more than once - and many games don’t even get finished once by many of people that play it. This includes some of the most highly acclaimed games like the Witcher 3 and Red Dead Redemption II. It includes MMORPGs; while tens of millions of gamers have played World of Warcraft, for example, that’s only a small fraction of the hundreds of millions that have tried it and found they didn’t care for it.

For any game, things click for you personally or they don’t. The first time I played Borderlands 1 it didn’t click for me, I thought it was good but nothing special, and I played it again more as a matter of playing a game I had that wasn’t WoW, which was my main game at the time but I needed a break from it. Second time I played Borderlands it fell into place for me and I’ve been a massive fan of the franchise since. I’ve played the games for thousands of hours, and I know the hundreds I’ve played BL3 are just the beginning for me.

It clicks - for me. It has great re-playability. For me. And there are many like me. To say that it flat out doesn’t have re-playability is to ignore the fact that it doesn’t for YOU, and, this is crucial, YOU aren’t EVERYONE. There are people that make a living off of streaming Borderlands games for audiences of thousands, that post YouTube videos watched by hundreds of thousands of people, and have been watched by that many people for years. The evidence is out there, all you have to do is look, that your personal opinion about the re-playability of Borderlands 3 is nothing more than your personal feelings about the game, and making sweeping statements that imply anything else is simply wrong.

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It would depend on the answers. Much of it is perspective. Would you view eternal life as a blessing or a curse?

There’s no true “uniqueness” anyway since people will always figure out what the optimal version of an item is, and everyone will want only that and treat anything else as either second best, trash, or a temporary holdover.

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layers of rng is exactly the reason class mods cant be on trial bosses

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You’re not wrong. At least not now.

When you’re in normal mode, all of these fun weapon abilities do the job and are, well, fun. No problem there.

Mayhem mode has always been just a way to make stuff bullet spongey while occasionally giving you something back to offset the loss. As you moved up through the Mayhem Modes however, it got less and less reliable so a lot of those ‘fun’ abilities ceased mattering.

Now that Mayhem 4 is just bullet sponge city, you’re 100% right and Damage is the only stat that matters.

Where I disagree is that the item system isn’t intended to give ‘replay value’.

The Borderlands franchise is about farming for gear. The layers of RNG are to provide varying “quality levels” of the same item rather than relying on a colour gradient system to do it in a strictly linear fashion.

Had BL3 gone too far with it? That’s going to come down on the individual opinions of players.

Personally I think some stuff is fine but other items are overdone simply because the base item without a couple of “must have” rolls is useless.

Take the Bezoomy for example (Vladoff AR). It’s DPS is absolutely terrible but it can have all of:

Second Bezoomy
a 2x stock
Come in an element.
Have a damage anointment.

I have one with 2 barrels and 2x bullets and it’s ok. I have another with 2 bezoomy barrels, a +50% shock damage for the next 2 clips and it’s OK. Get all 4 of the rare rolls and it will be a really good purple bullet hose, among the best.

But the base gun is still rubbish without at least 2 lucky rolls on it. The Shredifier is just a legendary Bezoomy so it’s got exactly the same problems except the static 100 clip size improves the extreme ammo usage a Bezoomy is capable of.

Other weapons with 2 lucky rolls like that are great. Alien barrel x2 weapons are often really good with some pistols and SMGs that are right corkers. The Redline with Double Penetrating and a matching element is also really good. All the Devoted needs is 2x if you can speed up your reload speed and clip size elsewhere.

Only if you get overly simplistic/reductive about it.

Let’s say you want to be using a Laser Sploder so you go and get one and it does the job. That doesn’t mean you can’t farm another one that might be better even though you don’t necessarily ‘need’ it anymore. Besides, there’s 4 other elements too. The ‘point’ to farming is preserved so it keeps providing incentive even though the weapon you have is already ‘functional’.

But once you’ve got the “perfect” ones of the weapons you want to use, what else is there to actually do? There’s no point anymore because there’s nothing you can get that’s useful. Sure, the game might still be fun but so are a couple of dozen other games where you can put in the same effort and still be getting new stuff worth using.

On the other hand… As long as those unobtainable versions of items are out there there’s something to aim for even though nobody actually needs them.

It’s not like Destiny 2 where all X weapons are the same or godlike rolls on weapons are actually pretty common but once you have them you take them off into PvP where there’s still something to do now that you’ve got them. And next month they’ll release a new one anyway.

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I’m pretty sure that’s why I said “imo” (as in “in my opinion”).

And actually, I wasn’t referring to myself. I was referring to the average gamer. Most of my friends don’t have the resolve I do.

Nice speech though.

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That’s actually why I made this thread. Borderlands games have so much loot that I don’t think the extra layers are necessary. It’s why I rolled my eyes the first time I saw anointments lol.

My main concern is dilution. When people found out the actual percentages of getting a useful piece of gear in td2, people just gave up. As I stated before bl3 isn’t nearly that bad, but it gives me that bl2 feel again. I never even saw an unkempt harold in the wild. I actually like the current drop rates. But the added stats and farming rare spawns is too much. I guess you can say I hope it doesn’t go any further than this.

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Couldn’t find that other thread I could’ve sworn on this section but I’ll post my thoughts here. Ain’t much and I’m on M4 trying to get through as I can but the loots in M4 is complete crap. Barely any legendaries dropping bit more than M3 and annointments aren’t even noticable. Probably still on M3 levels on how often it appears

I’m getting too tired of farming and not get something to keep me going. Not saying I want perfect rolls but an item or gear I want with prefix just isn’t happening in past few days.

I wanna get R-Hex shock element and been at it with Sky Bullies but ugh… I actually see world drops than it dropping Hex, Rebel Yell, and Shooting Star. Why those aren’t dropping but random world drops are? That kind of thing makes me mad. Not gonna lie and I hate to switch to different game

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I’ve only ever got normal hexes too. Not even cloning or any variations

I’m also starting to think the dedicated drops cant drop annointed at all unless something can tell me for s fact otherwise

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Can someone remind me WHY people were farming for a perfect Sham ( I obviously did not :slight_smile: )?

Was it because less than perfect one was no good at all for a specific build, or was it the fact of having a perfect Sham where actual value was (rarity, and that’s it)?

Quoted sentence seems to imply it was mostly the latter.

Min maxing basically

This quote pretty much nails it. I heard KillerSix mention on stream that on M4 every legendary should spawn with an anointment and I think it’s a good approach that’s easy to implement.

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One comment I’ve heard some people mention in regards to the assigned drops they did is that they think playing on mayhem mode makes it harder to get these assigned drops because the drop rate bonus isn’t being applied to the assigned loot pool like it does for the global. The amount of testing required to confirm it though is something I don’t plan on doing.

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I actually enjoy the RNG layers on items, but I sympathize with your frustration with the current state of drop rates (dedicated and non-dedicated).

Here’s how I see it:

  1. If drop rates are to stay low, then drops, item stats (COMs), and anointments must be more meaningful. Legendary COMs could have at least 2 thematic stats (splash damage build, sniper build, etc…). Manufacturer Weapon Damage on COMs should be higher (20% instead of 10%). “+25% Critical damage” anointments should be removed and added to “Accuracy and Handling” and “100% Projectile Speed” anointments. No more non-elemental guns rolling with “Status Effect Chance” anointments. I could go on, but I digress. So, I agree that almost all non-damage related stats and anointments end up being useless and need to be revamped. At the very least, they need to trim the fat.
  2. They buff the drop rates. This is just a band-aid solution. The addition of future items and anointments will further dilute the loot pool and Gbx will have to buff the drop rates again (hopefully…). At some point, if there are too many anointments, then even a 100% drop rate of anointed legendaries won’t matter. They could add a crafting system (something that I advocate) to reroll a choice of parts, stats, and anointments, but again, it’s just another band-aid solution.

I don’t blame RNG layers for being the problem. Yes, it’s a factor, but it can be a boon when the drop rates are right. Having some filler is okay, because it enhances that rush of dopamine when you finally get what you need. I hope Gbx realizes that players are putting in the effort and not getting what they want. The more they add (7 anointments dedicated to jumping and sliding!), the harder it becomes for players to achieve their goals.

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You know when drop rates are abysmal when you repeat killing the same toon that should drop something and exit&restart till the game crashes (happens after too much exit&restarts) and that toon still didn’t drop a single copy of what it should drop.

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Is this your first Looter?

Perfect shame has 94% Absorptions chance which makes high difficulties “easier,” however the reality is that people just want it because it’s rare. When it’s not rare it’s not as desirable.

The whole gimmick behind looters is the dopamine rush you get from getting a “rare” drop. The dopamin rush gets lower the more frequent you get something, just it is less rare.

You can tell the people that actually enjoy this loop because they kept playing BL2 for years. Where as people bought the game thinking it’s suppose to be a power fantasy shooter had most of the most powerful gear duped for them. After making post about how “fun” the most rare gear is they’d stop playing after a few months if not weeks.

Now to add on to that, getting an absurd power boost from an extremely rare drop gives and even greater dopamine boost. People seem to confuse “fun” with “gratifying.” It’s gratifying to to gt a rare drop, and it’s gratifying to gib enemies. However if you don’t find Borderlands as a whole “fun” without being abot to do that or constantly getting “rare” drops this clearly isn’t the game for you.

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This isn’t BL2 though. In BL2, most of the sought after items had far fewer variables in place compared to in 3 that justified the rarity more. Things like legendary class mods for example, only rolled one version more or less every time so you always knew that once you got that class mod, you know you had the best one possible. In BL3 with legendary class mods, the mods themselves can be worthless because you need to roll the version with the right skill boosts, and the three perfect extra boosts on it all at the same time.

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