Legendary gear: Why does activation cost not reflect random stats?

I don´t have a problem with random stats on (non class) legendary gear as it will be some form of long term motivation …

but what I do not understand is, why is the random stat range not reflected in the activation cost as it is for all other rarity types?

Why do I have to pay the same ammount of shards for an item that is clearly 300-400 shards worse than the other guys?!

Has there been any statement by the devs on this? … What do you guys think?

Apparently they already stated it wasn’t intended and were fixing it in the upcoming patch, by setting the stats to a fixed value :wink:

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I thought this was only concerning the class specific legendaries?

Not entirely true. The issue and fix is specific to class legendaries, not all of them.

Oh yeah my bad. My big bad ! I thought you meant class specific.

Should probably sleep at some point… ><

So yeah, back on topic, I agree. While they still got a special effect, that can’t be obtained by any other means, the more randomized part is, well, random. I suppose even the special effect can have a randomized value - I haven’t got the same legendary twice so I can’t judge, but I can guess from the values they were randomized.

On the other hand, a mix of two fully positive effects with no proc conditions, no drawbacks, and a third proc-based condition, unique effect, is probably enough to justify the base price. A potentially powerful item you can essentially upgrade for “free” if you happen to stumble on a new, more efficient one… shrug

Well … you get two positive effects with no condition on an epic that is significantly cheaper … the legendary “text” sure is awesome on many items but the upcharge is hefty.

Most importantly it just goes against the rules that the other rarities set up, where the activation cost reflects the value … why is it different for legendaries?
I liked that idea as it gives every item its right to exist and just seems fair. Its hard enough to get a legendary … why punish me with the same cost compared to someone who got lucky?

Yeah, I don’t know why they chose that. To be honest I kinda skimmed the “legendaries get fixed values” part, I though all legendaries were getting that, which in my mind was making sense too.

All I can guess is that epic can still have negative effects while legendaries don’t seem to. Of course a negative effect will decrease the activation cost, but it’s still a negative.

I’m a bit concerned by the fact a few challenge legendaries have really bad special effect that won’t matter at all when playing the character they are designed for - Phoebe’s is kinda bad, bad. And it still cost 1800 too. Unless the two other properties are really high, I’d rather get a sub-par non-specific legendary which will be more cost-effective, giving me more bangs for my bucks.

Maybe it would have been a funnier way to approach Legendaries by having them not activate at a given Shard cost, but rather let people pour shards up to that certain cost and have the item progressively unlock its full potential during a match. You could then just stop pouring shards when you got enough juice for your usage out of it.

But I’m merely trying to look for a explanation rather than defend the whole thing, really. I guess it’s all down there into the code, item budgetization and stuff like that. I guess SOMETHING must be balancing them to always be worth 1800, but that something being human-driven it’s still bound to errors in weighting each available property.

it’s a basic utility, you only get a certain range of percentages on each “perk” on an item.

From what I’ve seen (and forgive me if I’m a little off, I’m at work and my memory is horrible) but it seems to be that the items follow the same pathing indications:

White items only have one perk.
Green has two unrelated perks, one with an activation requirement.
Blue has two unrelated perks without an activation.
Purple has two of the same perks with an an activation.
Orange has three perks, two without an activation, and one with.

Really you’re paying for the number of perks, and whether they’re always on, or triggered, a negative perk acts against the price more than anything, but not the perk behavior on the item.

Always like to think about these while I’m playing… So, for those guys running two oranges and a shard generator, if they were to switch to a purple/blue three way setup, they would essentially be giving up nothing but the shard generator perk in exchange for the same number of perks spread across multiple items, they could even potentially have more “always on” items than they would while running oranges since they’re not stuck with an activation perk.
Now, if you go with 3 oranges though, you’re obviously stacked up with 9 perks, but it’s going to take you an eternity to get there.

The benefit to an orange isn’t the percentages on it, it’s the amount of perks.

I feel like some people are missing the complaint, which is a fair complaint that my roommate and I were discussing in length yesterday. The problem with the Legendary gear currently is that you can have a Common-Epic gear that gives the same stats with different percentages as another Common-Epic counterpart (i.e. Two greens, +5% attack speed and +5% attack speed on melee hit vs +6% attack speed and +6% attack speed on melee hit), and these differences in percentages are reflected by the more powerful ones being more expensive to activate. Legendary pieces of gear (non-Lore gear post patch) however can still roll these percentage differences without receiving a discount. The biggest difference I have seen confirmed by screenshot is ~30% (i.e. going from a 10% buff to a 13%). If two pieces of the same gear are separated by 30% usefulness and separated by 0% in cost there could be an issue.

Thoughts for possible workarounds. I feel like there are 2 options that address it in a way that is very obvious to the community and a couple more that would allow for an amount of balance that could feel very nice.

  1. Obviously just introducing a base cost with positive or negative modifiers based on the percentage roll on legendary gear just like the pricing for Common-Epic gear is an answer.

  2. Normalize ALL legendary gear. If you get ISIC’s (boss, not character, legendary) Firmware Upgrade it’s the same as JoeBlow123’s. If this is done they should probably lower the droprate and really make you farm for legendaries since they’re guaranteed to be as strong as possible.

  3. I read that they are working on making some changes to the way matchmaking is done for story missions. First, they want to add an option to search for advanced missions. Second, to address issues with not being able to find a match for the map you want to play they’ve considered doing a “daily map” or something to that extent that goes on rotation. I feel like implementing this also normalizes the legendaries to an extent. If I know I am looking for a certain legendary I could farm it this Tuesday and next Wednesday when it goes on rotation. Granted this could be combined with either of the two above mentioned fixes, too.

Does this state and explain the issue at hand more clearly? And what do you think of the fixes? Ideas yourself?

Edit 1: Finished a sentence… proofread failed me.
Edit 2: Added clarification to the first bit.

Yes, while I missed the issue at first believing we were talking about unique-challenge-legendaries ( for some reason I mixed everything, believing GBX intended to normalize all legendary gear anyway ), I understand where Ray is coming from.

I’m merely trying to understand GBX would put a fixed cost in the first place. As you said, you saw a screen comparison reflecting up to 30% more stats on a buff, may I respectfully ask whether that was on one buff or all of them, or what the full differences were ?
I’m curious to see if the buffs provided by two different versions of the same legendary auto-balance to match some kind of hidden item budgetization based on a pre-defined stat weight list obviously decided by the devs.
If Legendary X v1 is just in every points superior to Legendary X v2, then yes, I agree, there is an issue and it should be adressed alongside the normalization of all Character specific Legendaries.

It was obviously less of an issue in Borderlands getting a level 68 legendary when you could have got just the gun same with higher stats and a level 71 prerequisite. The game was literally based on getting more Big Guns, farming, and having fun in coop. In a fully PvP oriented game it’s not as good a way to go. Even MMOs chose the fixed stat for a drop route ( Wildstar got a bit of an outcry because they tried putting some sort of double RNG in the form of sockets - how many the item could have, and what element they could be. Didn’t do very well with people ).

All three stats were 30% stronger. http://battlebornforum.com/threads/legendary-gear-compendium-with-screen-shots.57/ There’s a guy that has a previously posted “Leechsteal Brooch” and then his screen shot. Even the “Legendary Effect” was 30% stronger.

Thanks!

Then no argument, yes. It’s a tad unfair it doesn’t work just like the rest of the dropped gear.

30% difference in quality and none in activation cost is pretty hefty indeed … :confused:

Regarding your solutions:
As I said in my opening statement, I actually like the idea of constantly improving your gear collection, even though it will mostly be small improvements … and it will take forever.
So I actually dislike the idea of normalizing the stats for all legendaries …
Then again drop rate seems to be incredibly low … after “farming” story missions (algorithm in particular) quite intensiley as of late, I am still stuck with 5 non-class legendaries in Beta and release combined. (and that´s over 120 hrs of playtime)

So we maybe could use some tweaks to the droprates if we stick with random stat ranges … for fixed stats, they would seem fine.

But as long as we have random stat ranges (and I don´t think they will change that for non-lore items) then activation cost should reflect the actual power of the item … it´s just unnecessarily unfair and luck-based otherwise.

I’m only ok with random stats if they have the same effective total ‘power’

I recently got a boss drop legendary from the mighty Arachnis, Lord of All Spiders, and to my dismay it’s LITERALLY worse in EVERY STAT to the same copy my friend got.

What they need for all legendaries (if they are to keep randomised stats at all) is to have BASE stat values, and any random increase to one is reflected as an equivalent decrease to another. I don’t think the legendary activation powers are affected at all anyway, so leave them as pre-set

Example: Legendary item X gives +10% Sprint Speed and +10% Attack Damage as its base values. If the randomiser changes it by 20%, it would turn those values into +12% Sprint Speed and +8% Attack Damage.

That way, every copy of a legendary item could still be different, but always equal power. This immediately makes their 1800 base cost fair, since you can never get a ‘worse’ copy, just a copy that is more specifically skewed to one of the two stats.

The issue is that it would require a significant change in how item stat values is calculated and stored. ALL values on items (outside of legendary cost, which is fixed) is scaled to a single value, which means database-wise they just need to store a single value for said item.

So what I am gathering from the community seems to say “Scrap your current normalization, possibly give it some work, but currently no one is happy that we all have to pay 1800 when two people can activate the ‘same’ gear that is up to 30% better/worse than the other.”

I like the normalization brough up by you guys. If one stat was x% better then another should be x% worse (possibly with some flat modifiers based on the stats getting floated). This would make keeping all Legendaries at 1800 feel balanced. Do you guys think the Lgendary passive should be flat across rolls and only the stats change, or is that up for RNGeesus to decide, too?

If stat rolls on Legendaries are to be kept the way they are I feel we need to see a change in price if we wish this game to be sucessful in high levels of competitive play. If both ADCs bought IE in LoL and one only gave 235% crit damage bonus or two people played Dr. Boom on Turn 7 in Hearthstone, but one was a 6/6 that spawned one Boombot the competitive scene would be seen as TOO RNG based (which it already is to a lot of people =p) and therefore non-competitive.

Thoughts?

I personally think this is unnecessarily complicated …
either make them all max stats (as they are doing with the lore challenge ones) or make their activation cost reflect the stats … just the same as with EVERY OTHER gear rarity.

How do you determine what is “the same total power” distributed over different stats anyway? There would again be a best item (probably with either main stat or bonus text highest) and the worse ones would still cost just as much.

… plus you have the issue that psaakyrn mentioned