Less of a powerhouse?

(since CTT) #1

After day (and night) 1, I have a sneaking suspicion The Nerf Team has payed Rath a visit.

Imo both Catalytic Smash and Dreadwind appears less devastating than during the CTT.

Plus, I get the impression Rath´s overall movement speed has been slowed a notch.


Reckon you are correct. First few matches I played I was very ineffective, compared to the CTT where I did pretty well with him. I’m trying some hit and run tactics where if I don’t get a quick-ish kill I drop back. Seems to work better. CS is still OK I thought, DW was a bit slow and CrossBlade I was having real trouble connecting. He seems to get God mode after about helix 6.

(since CTT) #3

Yea, was forced to apply same hit-and-run strategy now, whereas in CTT it was merely a matter of … hit.


Been working a build around Waveform Smash and Catalytic Flash (helix 1 and 4). Gives good options against moving targets, sweep in and try for the kill and then retreat immediately. Follow up with a DW if you have it and this seems to be a solid tactic.

Also Zealous Smash at helix 9 gives some nice synergy to this when you get there.

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(since CTT) #5

Tx for the advice, @TrickyLoki - I’ll give a try next :acmaffirmative:

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No worries mate, good luck!!

(iPayUrFrenZ on PS4) #7

I think Rath is too strong. I demand he be nerfed…again.
A Rath shouldn’t be diving at a full health Miko, at his Sentry, who is trying to run away…and still get the kill. :frowning:

(since CTT) #8

Mushrooms are best enjoied sliced :dukeparty:

(Jokerking9211) #9

I think Rath is good where he is at, I like that he is more of an assassin character where you go more hit and run and less tanky.


Any attacker should be pretty comfortably tearing up support characters, that’s what the roles are for.

It also depends on your Miko build. If you buff up Biosynthesis to the max and work behind your group you’ll do better. You need people on your team too who are aware that they should be standing in front of you as Miko to make sure that doesn’t happen.

(Dadissk) #11

Totally agree miko behind a Montana is a crazy combination. Nearly impossible to kill.

(Tremadog102) #12

Very true. If someone has Miko helping them they should be trying their best to stop characters like Rath from getting near the healer.

(CrashFu) #13

Rath too weak? You mean, until he unlocks his ultimate, right? Because spec’d right, his ultimate makes him game-breakingly OP. We’re talking a move that fires up quickly, covers a wide range, lasts a long time, lets you retain good mobility during that time, and can do WELL over 2000 dps

(Cranuebunwa) #14

Right, except he can be stunned, knocked back, silenced and/or knocked up to stop it. Montanas, other Raths, El Dragons do this to me in game with a reasonable frequency. There’s counter play around it - It doesn’t one shot you unless you’re a squishy support who is already at half health or so. In which case, y’know, you were probably going to die anyway (What were you doing so close to a Rath as a squishy with half health, and where are your peels?)

(Cranuebunwa) #15

There are a few things that I struggle with in this game, especially as a Rath player:

  1. Unit collision is pretty, uh, tough. For a game that’s supposed to be fast paced etc, it’s pretty brutal to come up against unit collision issues on the tiniest minion - especially as a squishy melee attacker. This manifests in situations in which I’m trying to escape and in which I’m trying to close a kill.

  2. Rath seems from the beginning like the ghost of a former titan. I didn’t play the CTT, but I could tell from my second game as Rath that he was likely nerfed compared to his original conception. Here’s why:

    -He’s not quite fast enough. For a melee assassin/attacker, his base speed seems just a touch too slow, and there are a lot of ranged characters with considerable disengage potential in the form of sprints, dashes and pushbacks. His spin to slow helix alleviates the sticking/closing issue a bit, but I still find that closing against characters with any hard disengage is a bit tough since the slow is only 1s. Like I’m always just a touch too slow. Similarly, this applies to escapes as well. No dash, no bonus movespeed, just a CS that you likely used to engage and is still on cooldown to do anything meaningful if you need to hit-and-run. It’s as though he used to be too fast, which combined with his high attack speed made it impossible to get away from him, and so he was slightly overnerfed. The other problem could be that his damage (aside from dreadwind) is just a little low, particularly on his abilities? I’m not quite sure. Hit-and-run tactics seem to be the goal with his design, with sustain a component of keeping him in the fray just a little longer than maybe other champs. But he doesn’t feel very effective at the whole “run” component of that. And the “hit” component is pretty situational.

    -His lifesteal, aside from the crazy healing potential from dreadwind with the skillful syphoning helix doesn’t actually seem to sustain our quintessential “Sustained” for anything significant. Relative to the damage he takes from being in the frey (From minions, stray bullets, snipers), his base lifesteal and talented lifesteal (aside from dreadwind) is a simple drop in the bucket. Swordman’s salve is effective at making the lifesteal seem perhaps more helpful, but the cost of losing healing on dreadwind is too high. It seems, at face value, like his lifesteal was too high in some prior closed test/alpha, and the open beta has numbers that are just a bit too conservative.

    -I can respect that he isn’t a waveclear master (Excluding dreadwind), but minions hit so ludicrously hard in this game that attempting to do any sort of waveclearing yourself without a support etc is a brush with death. God forbid that any of the game’s ranged characters see you making a waveclear attempt and have decent aim. This scenario is likely a recipe for you to return to base with your tail between your legs and a pipe full of frustration, assuming you’re not dead. I’m not sure if he had DR or something previously, or if this is a function of the not-enough-sustain mentioned above, but it can be somewhat annoying.

    -Dreadwind seems like it’s weirdly tuned. It hits incredibly hard with almost no warning before start up. I recognize there is counter play around it, which is great. However, if you have a health pool that is too small, it’s very likely that you’ll get destroyed before you even have the chance to attempt to counterplay. The flipside to that is that if you even breathe on Rath with anything that looks like cc, it’s over. Which in a fast-paced FPS-like moba is pretty easy to do. There are enough characters with stun/knock-up/silence options that with any reasonably coordinated team, his ult becomes more of a liability as it doesn’t protect him from damage in any way shape or form while he’s in it. It can heal him through damage, sure, but not cc. I’m not quite sure where the ultimate started at to get to this point, but it seems weird. Like in less competitive play, it’s a brutal, almost guaranteed kill. Against a modicum of coordination it’s a huge liability, often better as an emergency sprint if you Helixed into the movespeed on DW or overshield.

  3. Sort of touched on this earlier, but minions hit so hard. I’m not sure if that’s intentional, but being a non-tanky/non-bruiser melee without some ranged options make engaging them kind of annoying (doubly so if anyone else with range is even pretending to be on you). This isn’t the end of the world, but with this game being about minion-centric objectives (so far) and not necessarily a death match, that’s sort of a strategic liability.

To be clear, I don’t think Rath needs a ton of buffs or anything crazy. I still do plenty well with him - plenty of kills, plenty of wins, etc (averaging about 3-4 KDR). As a 1-on-1 duelist, he does very well against most characters. The catalytic smash knock-up + silence + slow from crossblade is a devastating combo, although it can be difficult to secure the kill. The gameplay just doesn’t feel that fun outside of 1-on-1 duels as a result of some of the aforementioned elements. I’d love to trade some of the damage of Dreadwind for some additional CC protection, CC utility, or increased sustain from other non-dreadwind sources. I’d love to see a little bit more baseline lifesteal or a brief dash (making the leap on catalytic smash baseline could handle this) or some slightly increased movespeed. Something to make squaring off against minions a bit easier, and feeling more like a skilled Jennerit Warrior and less like a squishy Jennerit assassin who can’t push the objective or secure the kill unless the stars align.

What I’m saying is that he needs some QoL improvements. If he’s going to be the attacker in the role you have him - not as much movespeed as el dragon, without a dash/gap closer, or without phoebe’s teleport, you really need to beef up his sustain from his passive or give him a little bit more DR. Both of those things would also help alleviate the whole minion thing. I still advocate for the adjustments to his ulti. And as far as his overall damage, given that he’s not a strong aoe wave-clearer (unless he burns his ult, which is his “one-trick,”) He really should be quite the damage-dealing threat. Otherwise there’s really not a lot of pressure from him when it comes to winning/losing the game’s actual objective.

This is just my experience thus far. It’s entirely possible that others feel extremely differently or have different experiences. I’m open to some different views and some advice on how to play Rath a bit better.

Hero balancing and changes
(Orendi <3) #16

That’s my only complain with him, speed. Even with +speed gear i cannot out chase anyone even tanks, he’s way too slow. That and the alt attack is pretty much useless, the range is very low which only gets more useless considering the speed issue.

He really is a hit-n-run char ( and thats how i play him ) but sometimes i end up really frustrated because sometimes, outside of the main attack and ult, unless u manage to hit him hard they will simply run away, u wont be able to catch up to him and even if u run close to him 90% of the time the alt will be useless.

(Cranuebunwa) #17

After looking it over, I think something like…

Crimson Fastness should be baseline -> Alleviates some of the snap engage/snap disengage discussed above. Adds some slight nuance to its usage as opposed to its current point-and-shoot also has the potential to over-extend you if used improperly

His secondary attack should be some sort of parry stance that slows movespeed but reduces projectile and melee damage from the front (but not skills?) (maybe using his sick-fresh greatsword that he uses for nothing other than catalytic smash and looking cool), similar to Galilea’s block when she is shieldless (with less DR than Galilea, of course). A slightly different option could be to have him reflect (maybe non-ulti) melees & projectiles back @30% of their damage with said stance. His secondary is… alright currently. It’s just, uh, not that cool or useful. And this would alleviate some of the minions/getting picked off while engaging minions etc discussed above. Again, this would also add some cool nuance and flavor.

Evasive maneuvers Should be baseline **QoL for the whole hit-and-run thing. Shields are down, risk/reward. Use the speed boost to close on whatever’s shooting you (hit) or get the hell out because you’re overextended (run). **

Dreadwind should have its damage and area nerfed by about ~30%, but render him cc (not damage) immune. This renders the ulti more versatile - Is it burst damage killer? Maybe, but with reduced damage, it won’t be as strong at ganking as it is currently, but it won’t be as counterable. Is it a 60sec CD get-out-of-jail-free card?

I’m not sure what the percentage of Swordman’s salve is, but that feels like it should be baseline also. Although I think a slightly cooler mechanic might be to buff the amount to be somewhere between not-a-vampire and swordman’s salve, and then have the hits restore shields as well - not necessarily shield steal, but the %lifesteal will just apply that to his shields if/when he’s at full health. EDIT: On second thought, I’d probably make the shield thing a helix choice rather than baseline.

Note that his damage output wouldn’t really change much aside from nerfing the ulti, but the trade-off would be that he is a little bit more able to stick on targets and/or run when he needs to. And not get solo’d by winions or a few stray shots from ranged characters who noticed there was a Rath engaging winions.

Given his low health pool, none of this would actually help him take on more than one player, necessarily. Rather, he’ll be well-equipped to fill his stated roll. Hit-and-run attacker/duelist. Bane of squishies, back-line ranged assassins or supports without peels. But still vulnerable to cc, tanks who are peeling, etc.

The combo would be something like Catalytic Flash in, crossblade, dreadblade, evasive maneuvers out. If you miscalculated, evasive maneuvers should give you that run option. If you’re running but getting sniped or shot, get some distance and turn around to parry, decreasing 30% of the damage you’re getting pegged with and sending it back where it came from (putting them in danger) as you slowly back up.

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