Let's complete a respectable survey for Gearbox every skill AS and augment break down

It actually is. Go to the droughts without any DR, run to a Skag, watch how large the damage is. Get FB, write down damage from a Skag again (has to be same type and lvl). Now get Kill Skill activation and activate a skill. Write down damage. Borderlands does not have damage ranges (though I do not know if for example NPCs with guns might spawn with different guns which makes elemental damage resistance testing more complicated even not considering finding easy to test with enemies with elemental damage).

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See’ing Red should add another +25% to kill skill bonus, which should add with death follows close for a total of 50% bonus to all kill skills.

Good Misfortune should not have diminishing returns.

Cold Bore should keep the weapon swap speed as a passive but make the bonus cryo damage a kill skill, but similar to Playing Dirty in that it only effects the next 5 shots.

Donnybrook is in the exact same location on the skill tree as Moze’s Drowning in Brass. Drowning in brass adds 20% gun damage, -2.5% fire rate per stack. Stacks last for 15 seconds and can stack up to 3 times for 60% gun damage, -7.5% fire rate. The gun damage also applies to her allies. Donnybrook is 15% gun damage, 2.5% health regen of missing health for 8 seconds. Yeah… Donnybrook should stack 3 times.

Nerves of Steel should also have 1%/2%/3% gun damage per second that can stack 15 times up to 15/30/45% gun damage. (similar to Moze’s Phalanx Doctrine)

Trick of Light should remove the conditional of enemies not targeting you.

Distributed Denial should add 10% fire rate, 10% gun damage while Barrier is active in addition to its current state.

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Insane how bad Nerves of Steel is.

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I will not mention where I agree to reduce redundancy. If one of the skills isn’t mentioned, you can assume I agree with OP or that our opinions are similar enough where it’s irrelevant.

Cold Bore: Shouldn’t do Cryo damage (as its negated by anointeds, which while a small group of enemies, becomes significant in certain maps).
suggestion: having it stack additional slow like Brainfreeze while being Kinetic/element neutral

SNTNL: needs overall damage buffs and augment re-evaluations. Good ideas, but numbers don’t hold up or scale on much, and even when they do there are better options.

Borrowed Time / Good Misfortune vs. Adrenaline/ CCC: I understand that these two sets of skills can serve different builds, but from experience Uptime builds for Zane have diminishing returns in usefulness into endgame compared to Downtime builds.

Without Adrenaline, my standard CD with guardian ranks and perks for Digiclone is ~5 seconds. At this point there’s no real reason to perk Adrenaline. I could perk for skill uptime, being more useful for Barrier, but only if I’m not going to CCC, because then uptime as a stat is irrelevant with CD/skill resets. Drone benefits from CDR, having the longest CD but Hitman tree instead focuses on duration, while having a class mod that can reset CD/duration and CCC AND an augment.

???

Suggestion: Put CDR into Hitman, move duration into Under Cover. Borrowed Time and Good Misfortune might actually be redundant considering how short CDs eventually get naturally, reducing the need to keep your skills going and having reverse synergy with Infiltrator (low duration, low CD for more activations).

Praemuntus: must be much better to be at all worth using. You would both have to know each weapons break points AND have a particular need for passing that point to make this skill worthwhile as anything but a point-sink.

Borrowed Time: Redundant with Good Misfortune, I feel. If I’m going 2x action skill, I’m just gonna get Borrowed Time since it scales more, I’ve already met the conditions, and it doesn’t have diminishing returns. If I’m going 1x action skill, I probably don’t care about extending the duration slightly on kill.

Which One’s Real doesn’t seem to noticeably work in a noteworthy manner. I’ve seen enemies switch aggro off me to the clone after swapping when sometimes they wouldn’t without WOR, but even then it didn’t proc Trick of the Light and they’d still be in range for Dopplebanger anyways.

Dopplebanger: One of my favorite skills. A useful nuke and CC while changing the hip-fire meta for Zane. Scales off of bonus splash damage % off class mods, AoE damage off of artifacts, and splash damage on anointment. Not only one of, if not Zane’s best augment, but also one of his best damage options and best flavor options.
Note: Does not actually scale/scale well off of any bonus duration. The trigger damage depends
on how soon you activate it from cast to detonation in my experience. With 5/5 Borrowed Time,
2 action skills up, the fastest possible detonation, 3/3 Good Misfortune with Seein’ Red (for max
instant bonus during trigger duration), and Boom Enhance I noticed a +3k damage buff for 10 skill points of investment, several conditions, and 2 action skills.

Trick of the Light does not typically work in solo play no matter what you do, in my experience. Swapping with the clone doesn’t typically de-aggro enemies even if you have Which One’s Real? In the times I’ve gotten it to work, I’ve had to swap with the clone and run around a corner, behind cover even though I’m >30ft away already. Even if you do get it to work, it’s only 18% bonus damage.

Nerves of Steel is a lot of fun, but you must be at max shields which makes it extremely less useful as even with a barrier, you can still get hit with splash damage (or hit yourself) and lose all your stacks, which don’t start refilling (slowly) until after you are at full shields again. Should work like Confident Competence/Adrenaline based on how full your shield is, not keeping it full.

Zane suggestion: give him non-conditional damage buffs somewhere. Switch the 1st row of Undercover with the 2nd row so that if people want to play Rough Rider, they don’t have to waste 5 skill points doing so.

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I would like to see praemunitus synergize with Playing Dirty and low ammo count guns.

+2 ammo count per magazine per level.

Would love to have a 15 shot maggie.

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You would think they would have considered reverting some if not all those pre release nerfs. Not sure how testing went and that was the one thing they decided needed to be changed compared to release Moze and Fl4k

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my best guess is certain influencing youtuber 's input was that zane was too strong compared to others based on miniscule playtime and gear used… but this is not why i made this topic and it is derailing fast.

I might have to close this thread guys let’s try to keep discussion and explanations to minimal or do i in DMs. We only want to write here, what skills is broken, what skill is undertuned what skill is okay but we need to buff to bring zane up. Since our dmg is purely conditional and so is survivability we should have higher values than characters who generate those passively. People who know exact numbers on every character could theory craft number range for zane on life steals or gun damages and such. for example what value shall cool hand be? and such. suggesting stuff like cold bore should do something else or trick of the light should be always on i dno MENS (hltv) don think it is gonna happen.

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On the 10/3 hotfix, Gearbox added a 2s re-trigger delay (ie cooldown conditional) to Leave No Trace and Means of Destruction. On the 10/10 hotfix, Gearbox revised those re-trigger delays from 2s to 0.3s for both skills.

If Gearbox can add and then revise a conditional via hotfix then they can just as easily remove the conditional of Trick of Light as they can change the numerical values of Cool Hand.

Trick of Light is broken. The numerical value is not the issue. The issue is that the conditional relies on enemy AI pathing. The only time you can reliably proc trick of light is your very first shot into a group of mobs. After that, they all target you and that 18% is gone. Now, IF you could reliably deploy/swap with the clone to activate trick of light THEN trick of light would be fine. Unfortunately, which one’s real only makes enemies “more likely” to target the clone and not you. This entire interaction is not consistent and makes trick of light not worth the investment, ie broken.

To make matters worse, you have to invest 20 skill points into the Doubled Agent tree before you can even unlock the skill to begin with. So for a whopping 23 point investment, Zane gets a bonus 18% shock damage that is reliant on enemy AI pathing. Wow… So OP it should probably be nerfed to 1%.

Now compare that to Moze’s Fire in the Skag Den skill which is in the top row of her Demolition Woman tree. For 5 skill points she get a bonus 15% incendiary damage anytime she deals splash damage. Use a Torgue weapon and it is ALWAYS ON.

You started this topic which on a public forum is a request for discussion. Now you are threatening to close the thread because you do not like the discussion? Just delete the entire thread.

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i am not threatening anything it is very hard to get through huge walls of text especially when it is back and fourth explanations. i like the idea of trick of the light activating every swap but it would still be just for another shot. it mostly seems thought that as we mentoned it is rather augment’s problem not the skill’s. a.i. simply does not target your clone over you, i do not know if they are scripted to target the one dealing bigger damage but always on multiplicative bonus elemental damage does not sound unheard of for tier 5 investment. As i said i am interested in comparisons such as you made with moze’s skag den but it is also conditional and i do not know if it multiplicative so i’d like to know that as well. conditions are vastly different here just use torgue can also be understood as being pigeon held to torgue and maliwan to make use of it which is not a great thing right?

What we are looking into:
1.Is the skill not working as advertised?
2.Is the skill working but the numbers are simply too low?

first row of intel i wanted to gather is about what is plain broken and needs fixing ASAP.

secondly i wanted to know what skills/augments need numerical increase per point invested

thirdly i wanted to hear buff suggestions in very short. but i can definitely not enforce this.

mostly i am looking into selecting such values that will justify the conditions of a skill compared to other VH’s passives or same type kill skills.

i can not make any use of " how i’d have made zane if i was gearbox" kind of posts. mostly the responses have been great it is just a lot of text and i’d like people who have questions with each others posts to rather solve it in DMs is all.

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I’ll critique Under Cover and Double Agent trees. I don’t have much experience using Hitman. I’m just going to talk about the ones that could use some improvements.


Barrier:

  • Increase the distance that it can be thrown (When you run full speed and activate Barrier, it ends up behind you)
  • Running through the center of Barrier automatically picks it up
  • Remove penalties for pickup Barrier, except for size decrease

Refreshment:

  • Also benefits allies at 33% effectiveness

Nerves of Steel:

  • Lose a stack(s) each second after shield breaks instead of all of them
  • Maybe add critical damage to encourage players

Digi-Clone:

  • Swapping maintains the direction that you were facing instead of the clone’s

Synchronicity:

  • Maybe buff by 25%

Duct-Tap Mod

  • Maybe remove the cooldown
  • Also add splash damage radius

Which One’s Real:

  • It always taunts, but limit the range

Doppelbanger:

  • Significantly decrease the charge time

Pocket Full of Grenades:

  • Add splash damage

Like a Ghost:

  • Make it more effective if wearing a shield that doesn’t have Absorb/Reflect

Double Barrel:

  • Activating Digi-Clone also activates the buff
  • Increase the duration of the buff by a few seconds

My hopes are that they make Zane's gameplay smoother and up the damage bonus of Synchronicity. 40% isn't a lot considering, it requires two Action Skills and there are times you can't maintain it with CCC. With Barbaric Yawp, Fl4k can get 35% damage bonus for just having a pet out.
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This is a good thread. I main Zane and my feeling is that he really needs some passives. His skills are regularly at odds with one another. The capstones also need some re-work.

Wish I had more time to respond, but some quick thoughts:

Adrenaline: make it passive and reduce the buff.

Nerves of steel: make it a passive buff to accuracy and handling and a bonus to critical hit or regular damage either on full shields or on kills (so it prova with seeing red)

Distributed denial: make it so picking up the barrier now gives the full bonus for all barrier bonuses (including the one that says you have to be near it)

Best served cold: add a bonus cryo damage

Violent violence: give a base increase to fire rate.

Playing dirty: give it a small (2%) chance per skill point that there’s an additional projectile on the first bullet on a magazine

Cool hand: make it so the entire magazine has a bonus, even if it’s 3% per skill point it would begin to be more worthwhile

Duct tape mod: reduce the cool down to 4 seconds - this is so random and the effectiveness is tied to only certain grenades so right now too limited

Donnybrook: give it a passive gun damage increase.

Trick of the light: upon swapping with clone, Zane gets a buff for a limited time (gun damage, critical hit damage, fire rate, etc).

Zane feels like playing on a rollercoaster, when he is hitting those highs it’s great, but fail to keep up the barrier or get kills and he bogs down to an unsatisfying crawl. Giving him some passives should smooth out some of those valleys where he doesn’t feel so terrible.

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general consensus seems like:

violent speed shall scale with violent momentum’s dmg better.
cool hand is way too weak
Best Served Cold is too weak
duc tape mod cool down needs to be looked at
Nanites or Some ■■■■■ needs to work with picked up barrier
Charged Relay needs to work with barrier picked up
every augment for SNTNL needs to be looked into apart from winters drone.
old U it is unresponsive if clone is taking damage which often renders it useless
Nerves of Steel needs looking into for high tier skill it provides questionable benefits that are mainly designed to assist with hipfire speed oriented builds
Praemuntus needs to be round number
Which One’s Real very questionable proc it would be great against killovolt or traunt but it does not seem to work utter most of the times both targets will still stare at you.
Double barrelr needs better A.I. sadly.
binary system damage needs to be looked at
Trick of Light due to problems with which one is real this skills is nigh useless for solo play (would be okay but it is damn tier 9000 skill)

as per many suggestions confident competence also needs to be looked at.

general concerns:
1.action skill deployment is very clunky and slow, reduce the animations or speed it up. look into successive deployment of two action skills.
2. All of zane’s dmg and survival is conditional, therefore they should give bigger buffs compared to other vault hunters. while in practice it is just the opposite. Passive shall never exceed kill skill values.
3.barrier particle effects are blinding

ideas i liked :
if Seeing red is available when you go to ffyl it could activate all your kill skills

again remind me if i am forgetting anything. I will not be passing on buff suggestions though i like some of them. let’s focus on getting things working as advertised and get rid of useless skills first

once the list is completed i will pass it to @Derch who can further confirm the issues within is discord and people like mopi and chuck also demo has some experience on zane now. the goal is to maybe reach dev team and address issues that need attention yesterday! buffs can wait.

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So much this, Zane is probably the character that suffers the most from going down, especially with Old-U the way if is.

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Confident competance needs to be not worthless if shields are down or be much better if they are up.

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I’ve seem some concerns about Rise to the Occasion and Donnybrook not scaling properly, regardless I don’t think the later needs to be scaled on missing HP as it’s small and doesn’t spike.

Duct Tape Mod I just wish it would be guaranteed after the cooldown, having a cooldown, 25% chance and relead condition are too much for reliable use. Especially when the pets have better grenade skills.

Otherwise, I would just get rid of everything Accuracy related, BL3 guns are accurate enough as it is, if anything recoil reduction would be more useful (not by much).

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what are the exact issues with either and who tested it? and are we talking health regen?

How about freezing an enemy automatically gives max stacks of Nerves of Steel. Every second shield is not full removes one stack.

It would then be a viable and worthy top tier skill.

Raise like a ghosts chance and duration. Even with six points in it i just cant tell if its doing anything.

at 6 points its 12% and after activating an action skill it becomes 30% for “8 seconds” if your CCC zane youll barely ever get the additional chance, so I think it should just work like the skills that are in its tree sychronicity and supersonic man. Another option could be while targeted chance to ignore bullets kind of like a reverse trick of light.

If youre right and all the skills are set to work the way they are just chance and duration. It has the duration of a kill skill even though its not a kill skill.

I am not sure where, but Zane would benefit from a skill that increases splash damage up to 20-25% upon activation of an action skill for up to 8 seconds. It would synergize with the clone or sentinel dropping a grenade or activating a nova. The amount should be modest as it could get ridiculous as you stack annointments, artifacts and com bonuses, but as the rng gods are fickle it should help if someone wants to use gimmick’s nova berner’s builds.

Additionally his legendary com Legendary Cold Warrior should remove Cryo immunity and replace it with a 50% cryo resistance, and reduce cryo resistance by 25% (obviously values would have to be tested). Also it should buff brain freeze instead of trick of the light. Having some legendary coms that are more than just marginally useful would benefit Zane as well.

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Okay here we go again with some ideas:

Barrier: hold to auto equip upon deployment, keep barrier on FFYL.
Brainfreeze: skill is fine, add a Cryo Nova with cooldown when enemies can’t be frozen.
Confident Competence: make the stats flat as long as the shield is active or increase them to compensate for the conditional use.
Best Served Cold: scale damage with Mayhem, trigger Nova on slam.
Refreshment: decrease stats, change to Shield Steal, and add crit bonus to frozen enemies.
Nerves of Steel: change from Shield Full to Shield Alive.

Digiclone: improve AI, change modes to match element, use Atlas secondary. Increase stats to match Mayhem.
Synchronicity: extend bonus to pets.
Donnybrook: remove HP regen from Zane, give increased HP regen to Clone.
Duct Tape Mod: change the chance to guarantee.
Old-U: fix the clumsiness, make it automatic upon Clone or FFYL time end.
Trick of Light: extend bonus to clone.
Like a Ghost: remove passive, increase Kill Skill stats.

SNTNL: increase stats to match Mayhem.
Cold Bore: add effect on reload.
Violent Momentum: bonus scale increased past default walk speed to make full use of numerous speed bonuses. Add the same bonus as a flat rate to Drone.
Cool Hand: increase stats, add a change to restore ammo used on reload. Increase Drone abilities cooldown rate.
Drone Delivery: decrease cooldown.
Salvation: add 20%-100% Lifesteal to Drone.
Death Follows Close: change 7s to double time or instances.
Violent Violence: add bonus to Drone.
Playing Dirty: add passive change of extra shot to Drone.
Good Misfortune: freeze timer instead of adding time.
Seeing Red: add another 25% bonus to kill skills, activate kill skill on FFYL.