Let's face it Borderlands will never be difficult

Speaking for myself only I don’t hate the system at all. I do mildly object to them locking gear behind M4 as I don’t see the need in a PvE game. As regards the point about OP2 gear not being suitable for OP8, that doesn’t really apply to the Mayhem formula so don’t see where it would be an issue. I can’t really see a good reason to lock e.g. the Spiritual Driver behind M4 - whether you can play without it is not really the point.

I think that’s our only point of difference really. I’m quite happy with the current system with the mild caveat that locking gear behind M4 doesn’t belong. I’d also rather have a system where gear was more likely to be obtained from a certain source but all gear was also available to be found as a world drop. If I don’t like fighting Chupacabratch I should still have a chance of getting the Recursion shotgun as a world drop, for example. But If I really want that specific gun then I can also go farm that monster.

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Let me clarify:

OP8 was easy for hardcore players in general, since nothing is really difficult for hardcore players. Seriously, besides something like Super Meat Boy or Getting Over It, what PVE games actually present a challenge for hardcore players?

The content you listed was also easily chessable by Salvador and quest gear, so anybody could, if they wanted to, farm that content. This actually provided the closest thing to decent balance in regards to difficulty. Hardcore players could take on content 10 levels above them and, if they felt that was still too easy, just do white gear runs (which I’m pretty sure @Derch did, although I don’t remember if he streamed or uploaded it to YT). For anybody else who just wanted to farm OP8 for the increased drops, Pimp-Hab Sal was a thing. Both were fairly easy to get.

The difference between Bl2 and BL3 in this regard is that, with the exception of Pearls being locked behind UVHM, nothing else was gated behind difficulty. You COULD take Sal and cheese OP8 raids if you really wanted to, but there was no point because you could get everything you wanted at OP0. In BL3, purely because gear is gated behind M4, we now have to play it if we want to experiment with all the gear, which means that for those of us who don’t like to play on M4 for whatever reason, we now have to play with characters and builds we don’t like to farm content for an obscene amount of time to get something we want to play with.

There is no taking Pimp-Hab Sal and 1-clipping Vora. It still takes at the very least 5-10 minutes with an optimized meta build to run through the raid, farm round 5 SS, or the PG. Everything takes longer, so the need to use optimized meta builds to get through this content and get back to what you actually want to do takes a much more prominent role.

What do hardcore players get out of this? They’ve “beaten” the difficulty in under a month. Whereas in BL2, the issue of the game not being difficult enough for the hardcore crowd was to make the game more challenging for themselves, in BL3 the attitude seems to have shifted to wanted GB to make it harder for them.

We have 3 Borderlands games behind us. We know by now that for Borderlands, more difficult just means “bigger numbers”. Heck, for most RPGs that’s all it is. While BL is a shooter, it is also an RPG through and through, and most of the time enemy behavior doesn’t factor into difficulty for RPGs. Overcoming bigger numbers with better gear gated behind time consuming farms and overwhelming players through sheer numbers is what most of these game types rely on for progression.

Exactly. I can’t bring the build I like playing best into M4. No problem if I can still play it in M3 and get what I want, but needing to change my build to play M4, especially given the time you need to farm to get M4 drops, makes that whole process a drag.

Not quite the same.
For one- You didn’t need to be on OP8 to get those drops. You got more drops in general on OP8, but I farmed OP0 Vora and had my fair share of interfacers.
2- While many of the best weapons were in the DLC, there were still similarly good weapons outside of it. If I couldn’t pimp-hab w/out DLC, I could still Flak-Nuke. There is nothing similar to the Rakk Pakk in M3, nor are there any weapons that debuff for up to 2 or 300% in the base game. Those are the only gear of their kind, and they only drop in M4.

The flip side of that is that you can’t have bad gear being overpowered by the OP system made useful in lower difficulties. @Adabiviak did this with a lot of the e-tech weapons in BL2. If you got OP level gear (which still dropped on OP0) then you got more powerful versions of that gear that would make playing OP0 more fun since you had a wider variety of usable gear. Unfortunately, a Woodblocker sucks the same on M4 as it does in M3.

Basically, M4 only really benefits the already established meta gear. Things that passable if not great become far less useful in M4.

M0 isn’t the issue. Nothing is tied to M0. Gear is behind M4. Also, I always need to mention this caveat, I play primarily pet FL4K, which means I build around something that doesn’t scale from gear. I’m dependent on GB to buff the pet’s health and damage levels to keep up with Mayhem levels. If you haven’t seen my thread experimenting with FL4K’s pets and how they need almost an entire Gamma Burst to kill one trash mob, then check it out and see why I’m very wary of GB implementing any new difficulty. Fl4k Critter Lab

Rakk Commander is useless and Cosmic Stalker doesn’t give Rakk Attack nearly the amount of damage it could since Interplanetary Stalker is bugged. If you want to run Rakk as a damage source, your best bet is M3. But the COM is M4 exclusive. You need it.

If I want to play my pet build with my pet actually being somewhat useful for bosses, I need debuff gear.

As was I.
But the gear that could make my build complete for M3, and the only thing that makes it functional for M4, is locked behind that difficulty. I wouldn’t care if that wasn’t the case. But at least in this circumstance, I NEED that gear for my build. Yes, there is trading, but then we’re depending on trickle-down gearonomics for the people to get gear.

Because I don’t want to yet? For some build sure, they’re ready. But the only thing I have fun playing with right now is a chore to bring through M4, so I don’t want to play there.

Let me end with this. The things you need to farm on M4 are: Tink PG, round 5 SS, Wotan, etc…The hardest content in the game at the highest difficulty. Over and over, dozens of times to finally get what you want. All the while, you aren’t playing something you enjoy, but something that gets this chore over with faster. You can go trade for what you want, but the absymal drop pretty much means that there will be a limited variety on the market. If you want one with a specific anoint, you better pray that someone has the patience to farm it.

What’s the point of it all? Hardcore players have this ■■■■ on lock already and want more, but unless GB nerfs M4 in Mayhem 2.0, this is only the beginning. They’ll farm and get the new gear and pass it down to the rest of us, but whatever GB decides to lock behind M5, and whatever they forget to buff to keep up with it (cough more than half the legendaries cough) will be left further in the dust. No prob if they don’t lock any more gear to the new difficulty, but considering they did it with M4, I have a sinking feeling they’ll do it again.

If GB removed gear from M4 only loot pools, fixes drop rates in general so that anointed gear is easier to acquire in higher Mayhems, and FREQUENTLY UPDATE their characters to keep up with new difficulties, then I wouldn’t have an issue. However, since we have no idea when and if those things will be addressed, I’d rather wait for those to be taken care of first before thinking about new difficulties. Especially since everyone, even the hardcore crowd, want these things implemented.

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Yeah it also wasnt all meant for you
Just thought some things also would give my answer to the things we have talked about and i didnt want to spam every thing even more by writing it twice :joy:

I agree, theres no “need” to lock things behind.
I think they just wanted to have some special reward for people who play the higher difficulty
More then just, you have a higher drop chance now. And i think this is absolutly reasonable.
And since in my opinion its not that much of a drawback for other players its absolutly okei for me. Actually i even like it a little bit

For the drops. Yup thats a hole different point
Theres only one reason why i like the system (especially at the beginning)
I farmed a lot with flak. And beeing able to farm world drops (which we never was bevor like this) is just a way to push all your chars and build in one. Yes to get the perfect gear for one build its a pain like never bevor. But to get lik 4-6 builds up to a smooth playability i think its pretty nice.

I would say make world drops 50% of what they are now.
Make rare spawn enemys at least 33% and maybe some 50%
Make dedicated drops 10% (and some maybe 20%). But for every item! (So if you farm something with 3 drops you would have a 10% chance for each item, means a 30% chance for one of the item)
I think this way it would still be a grind, world drop farms would still be worth it but you would atleast have the ability to get the specific item your looking for)

But thats just my opinion.
And for some it would be too much of this, or to less of something else
So its just hard to make it right for every one i think

PvE games are precisely the correct genre where gear is locked behind increasingly difficult stuff. Nothing new here, except you can trade for them/get them gifted to you.

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Personally speaking, I don’t want to have to deal with a super smart AI that makes killing standard enemies an exercise in constant strategy and skill every single time I’m in a gunfight.

This game is a looter shooter, and just like any other RPG where loot is king (a la Diablo or Path of Exile), mobbing should generally be a challenge, but not something you have to think too hard about excluding bosses and specific mob situations.