Looking for input on endgame Maya skill tree

Here is my planned endgame skill tree for my Maya:

Pretty happy with the skills, but I might want to adjust things depending on what class mods I end up running (some good recommendations that would work well w/ that tree or with only a few adjustments to it would be helpful).

It doesn’t look bad but if your planning on doing the op levels your most likely going to need more healing.

I would only put 5 points in Helios if you plan on using a Legendary Binder. That would give (up to) 10/5 Helios. Otherwise, Helios did not get a huge enough boost (from the 10/26/2015 update) to really benefit from only 5 points. You would be better off putting those 5 points in Quicken. I don’t really recommend putting too many points into Kinetic Reflection, unless you use a COM that boosts that skill by +4 or +5 or even +6. At 11/5 Kinetic Reflection, enemy bullets can actually heal you. If not using a COM that boosts Kinetic Reflection, I would still recommend 1 point in Kinetic Reflection since 1 point is enough to proc Cloud Kill.

NOTE: Yes, the Builds in my ‘signature’ need to be updated. I have just been too lazy to do that :blush:

Forum ID: Poisd2Strike
GT: Poisd2Strike
Trades: http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/poisd2strikes-humble-shop/367700
Gun Prefixes | Gun Parts | Max Stats
Maya OP8 | Banshee RR / NRR | Binder | Cat | Nurse | Siren | Trickster B / M

I like it! I’m not a fan of subsequence, but if you’re enjoying it, then have fun. My two comments are: You might want to consider trading 4 of the points in Flicker for Immolate and Kinetic Reflection for Quicken. Flicker is essentially useless unless you’re using Scorn, I’ve found, though leaving a point allows you to boost it with the L. Siren. Kinetic Reflection doesn’t scale particularly well, and is extremely situational, so you’d probably be better served by some nice cooldown. But nice build, I kinda dig it.

With SS, they’ll be getting healed for 15% (per orb? I never paid attention to that part of the skill) 3 or 4 times per action skill activation. Between that and Elated, I don’t see how much more healing they could get.

OP, you should shoot for legendary binder, your build is perfect for it. If I could give any suggestions to the spec itself, I would move the 5 points from flicker to immolate (the amount of guns flicker makes a difference with is fairly small imo), move the 4 points from KR into quicken, or you can put 1 point in Thoughlock if you feel adventurous.

I want to run Subsequence because it will proc Converge and Ruin (edit: and Sweet Release too) each time it gets to a new target, which is pretty awesome (at least in theory, we will see once I hit endgame what that really works out as).

I personally think people hugely over value Cooldown Rate as a stat in this game. The real way to measure its effect is in terms of % increase in action skill uptime. Allow me to explain what that means: Action Skills typically have a duration, that is, how long they do their thing, once that is done, then then have a cooldown time before they are ready again. The sum of those two numbers is the cycle time (how long from activation until you can use it again). If you take duration and divide it by cycle time, you get the percentage (as a decimal) of the cycle time in which the action skill is active and having its effects, for most action skills before including character skills that affect them; the uptime is typically roughly 1/3 (e.g. Sal’s Gunzerking has 20 second duration by 42 second cooldown, hence it is active for 20 out of the 62 seconds of it’s cycle time; ~32.2% uptime). Cooldown rate decreases the cooldown time, but in a manner that has diminishing returns, a 100% increase in cooldown rate will half the cooldown, a 200% increase would cut it to 1/3 as long, etc. the formula is:

cooldown*(1/(1+CDR)) where CDR is cooldown rate buffs (% as decimal).

For the Sal example the skill I’m Ready Already at 5/5 gives +25% CDR, so we have:

42*(1/(1+.25))=42*(1/1.25)=42*(0.8)=33.6 seconds

How does that affect uptime %? Well the new cycle is 20+33.6=53.6 seconds, and we have a new uptime % of 37.3%, which is an increase of ~5% to uptime, or, from a proportional perspective, it increased uptime by about 15.7%…for 5 skill points we get 15.7% more gunzerking time (assuming constant use when available)? Not very impressive now is it?

It is indeed 15% of missing health per orb, but the amount is determined when the orb reaches you, so each orb that heals you some means the next will heal less because you’re missing less (unless ofc you took enough damage in between orbs arriving). I could, with deeper investment in Harmony Tree, pick up Sustenance and then Life Tap, that would give me literally ALL of Maya’s healing skills, but then I’d really be running a Harmony+whatever else build, and tbh that appeals to me less than Motion+Cataclysm with just enough Harmony to help me stay on my feet.

Edit: Also, because it’s missing health, you won’t heal much if you have most of your health, but if you’re missing a lot, it can potentially heal a huge amount (all 5 orbs can heal you for over half your max life if you were nearly down when they began to arrive).

In standard (OP8) mobbing, I phaselock 5 seconds after PL ends. That means I pull together and slag enemies after every 5 seconds, and get SW that frequently as well. My phaselock itself could last 10 seconds (though I never need it to). In other words, Maya with a com and relic like mine is better than Sal: Infinite healing and slag, and no need to have any Moxxii weapons in the loadout at all. I think you’d be hard-pressed to convince me my build (http://bl2skills.com/siren.html#505001400052255103210554510501) could be just as good with less gear investment (L. Binder and Bone) toward Cooldown. For most characters, there is no more important stat in this game than Cooldown, because at its core action skills are what set the Vault Hunters apart from one another. The only true exception to this is Krieg, because of RtB. But Sal loves his L. Gunzerker cooldown, Maya benefits from her Siren and Binder coms, and sniper Zer0 adores his Grim.

But my original point was not praising the cooldown skill; it was suggesting an alternative to a skill which is lackluster at best. If you want some nice bullet reflection, grab yourself an Antagonist.

You have a lot of CDR in that build, in fact, if I’m adding this up right, you have 47+29+30=+106% cooldown rate, which makes your CD 13*(1/1+1.06)=~6.31 seconds, take out Quicken, but run the same gear and it’s 47+29=+76%, for a CD of 13*(1/(1+0.76))=~7.39 seconds. Quicken is cutting just over a second off your CD, which given how short it is, is at least decent for 5 skillpoints.

Edit: After rereading your post, I noticed you’re not running Quicken, and I’m not saying that CDR isn’t worth getting. Rather that, from skilltrees, it is usually inferior to other benefits (such as increased duration or flat reductions in CD). Or said another way, Skills like Sentry (Axton), Suspension (Maya), and especially Get Some (Salvador) are better than Resourceful (Axton), Quicken (Maya), and I’m Ready Already (Salvador).

If you want more skill duration, why not take thoughtlock? IIRC the increased cooldown time is bugged, so you get the extra duration for free. Let me see if I can find the post about it.

Because Thoughtlock has poor synergy with Converge+Ruin and Sweet Release, I’d rather be focusing down the target my Phaselock has sought out to proc those three multiple times instead of using the Thoughtlocked minion as a distration (also doesn’t immobilize them when you have Thoughtlock and it also increases CD time some, granted uptime is overall still increased).

I ran with that skill for a while. As lovely as it is, I like picking up the biggest guy around and bouncing bullets off his sad self until he’s the only baddie left around. Then he dies. It’s not the same if I can’t reflect off the thoughtlocked guy. Plus, Rabid skags are dicks when thoughtlocked. They aren’t the kind of good doggy who roles over and welcomes critical hits the way they do when you snatch 'em into the air.

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I agree with the person (Derch? Chuck80?) who wrote that they liked Subsequence when it worked, but not when it rattled around trying to find a second target. If enemies are close enough to the first phase-lock target to get picked up quickly by subsequence, they’re often dead before the primary target because I prioritize them over the one that’s phase-locked.

My current build looks like this, although I think I moved 1 point around to get Cloud Kill as well. It seems to work well with both Leg. Siren and Cat, and I should be able to use it with Leg. Nurse as well. Combined with a set of Bone of the Ancients and a decent shield (currently using either a Big Boom Blaster or an Antagonist, but I’ve also run with an Evolution and Blockade), it works pretty well for my level 72 end-game needs.

Dude - you’re at the end game; now is the time when you can really relax and try out different builds. Unless you’re struggling to stand on your own two feet here, you don’t need to sweat min/maxing (unless you’re into that sort of thing for its own sake).

That build doesn’t look half bad, but you should consider trying something you’ve never done before, including something that would otherwise seem terrible. If it doesn’t work, no harm done. Of all the characters out there, especially now that her previously lackluster skills have been buffed, you would be hard pressed to find a build that didn’t work. Seriously, just pick the skills that look fun and see what happens.

Have you ever Moxx-tanked with +11 in Recompense? Tried @Exotek’s Backdraft build? Ran her as a dedicated sniper? Thoughtlock+Converge+Ruin+Helios+Blight Phoenix? (Try using a Singularity grenade to pre-condense the mobs before Thoughtlocking one near the center, and start with the weakest enemy there if you haven’t already tried this).


I’m not there yet (currently just finished DLC1 in NVHM), so yea this is just me min/maxing and also checking that my theory crafting instincts and thoughts aren’t full of ■■■■. :smiley:

Leg. Binder looks like a perfect fit, it has incredible synergy with how I am expecting to use Phaselock with Sub-Sequence.

I would like that post multiple times if I could. That’s the truest post I’ve ever seen; This game does not penalize respeccing your skills in any way, in fact, it encourages it by placing a customization station front-and-center in the hub town. Once you have all your points, you can try things verging on the truly ridiculous. Maybe a health-stacking rough-rider Breakneck Banshee, combining zero shield and a health bonus with Lifetap and a fastball? Or perhaps a full glass-cannon build but with Thoughtlock as well as Ruin, using only a good shield and Ward to keep you alive as you make new friends. Chances are, they won’t work out, but hey, somebody put together a Transformer and a shock slowhand with a specific skill and heyo, one of the most gimmicky builds was born.

To the OP: If you’re only in NVHM still, then I can’t stress enough that you’ll definitely want to try out a full-on Harmony/Cata build. There’s nothing in the world of min/maxing quite as cool as watching an OP8 healthbar going from 3000 to 2000000 every few seconds, which is exactly what LifeTap does for you. I have such good war stories from the afternoon I went from OP5 to 8 with a friend… neither of us had realized the full potential of that damn skill until I was dancing among the UBA loaders, triggering kills from Surveyors, and tanking millions of hitpoints from all sides. Don’t ever rule out any skills until you’ve tried them at endgame.

I definitely do plan on experimenting once I’m there, I have played over 2000 hours of BL1, and ran literally ever com that game has (other than a number of the dlc3 and loyalty coms that I have yet to find maxed examples of) with many different builds (I am also the guy that’s been writing guides to each com in that game). So yes, I will experiment with ALL the shenanigans, but I wanted to see if this build, which I figured was well constructed was actually as well constructed as I thought, and so far (this is the 4th of the 6 characters I’ve done a thread of this sort for) I seem to have good instincts (only missing a few things, which are usually at least partially gear related concerns). This build, and the others I’ve inquired about, are builds that I engineered to fit my preferred playstyle based on BL1 experience (which is usually gun-centric, high DPS, gear flexible, with adequate means of surviving).

Not at all, just shoot the TLed target first. That’s what I’ve always done (heck, I thought that’s how most people used it). The it just gives you enough time to kill 1 or 2 more enemies before PL ends. If you do it well, you can kill 7 enemies in one PL.

If its not your cup of tea that’s no problem, it just seems to fit in exactly with what you’re looking for.
Also, about the CD time, that’s what the post I linked addressed. TL doesn’t add the cooldown. It’s just 4 extra seconds of PL.