M2.0's balance is detrimental for the game's health

Im not talking about the random modifiers, those are great and actually what they promised.

Im talking about the mess that is enemy health, gun scaling, and how those two things affect the game and how you can play it as a whole.

I honestly view gun scaling as a mistake. Sure, on paper it looks like a good way to reward players who play on higher Mayhem, but it comes with an avalanche of problems.

  1. It buries other ways of playing the game. With guns scaling up to 250%, but nothing else doing so, builds relying on melee, action skills, grenades, and shields for damage(whether as supplemental or the main damage) are unviable. So if you don’t want to use only guns for damage, you can’t play past M3. I still need to do some testing on the exact drop off, as it might be M2 or 4 for some things, like how Fl4k’s pets drop off at M4, but its far too low to be acceptable. One of the main draws of Borderlands, action skills, are equally affected. As of my last count, 27/155 skills, 4/5ths of the action skills(12/15 of them), and 44/62 of the augments(counting Fl4k’s pets and Amara’s AS varations as augments) are useless(basically, all the skills that increase damage but not damage boosts that apply to guns, any action skill that is intended to do damage, and augment focused on doing damage. Defensive/utility/gun focused skills, action skills and augments were the only ones not counted). So Melee/Avatar Amaras, Iron Bear/Grenadier Mozes, Rakk Attack/Pet Fl4k’s, and Zane players wanting to use grenades, Clone, or the drone for damage are abandoned for cookie cutter gun builds(some of which are not even character specific). OP8 didn’t have this issue, as grenade, pet, action skill, and melee builds were viable at OP8.

  2. It actually removes loot sources. As only guns that drop from enemy deaths scale, and not even things like loot tink backpacks count. Now instead of checking skag piles, the hundreds of chests scattered through the borderworlds, vending machines, your mail, the unique quest rewards, and litterally anything not involving a gun dropping as you kill an enemy, you now might as well not waste your time even looking at them. There is no point in doing quests for their unique guns, and there have also been claims that the Lootsplosion modifier doesn’t give Mayhem scaled loot, which if true is just as bad as the rest of this point.

  3. It creates a sense that the game expects you to get to M10. It may not for everyone, but I’ve seen a few complaints of this beyond my own experience where the person feels like the game is compelling them to play at M10 despite them not liking the difficulty. People in the community keep saying that M10 is an option, and you don’t have to play it if you don’t want to… but if thats the case why doesn’t it feel like an option? Mayhem 4 felt optional to me, so why doesn’t M10? The only thing that actually changed was enemies health multiplier and gun scaling, so I can only assume its the latter.

  4. In tandem with the above point, the fact that guns scale means that while the game rewards you if you go higher than you were playing, it also means that the game punishes you if you ever go to a lower level for any reason. It doesn’t matter if you are testing out a different build, wanting to goof off and tear through enemies for the fun of it, wanting to play with friends who are not comfortable at the Mayhem mode you were playing at, ect, all guns, regardless of parts and annointment, will be worse. That means that now instead of just ignoring all loot sources not from enemies, you can ignore all loot completely. Borderlands has always been a Co-op encoraging, loot focused game, so for it to punish you for playing with friends if they are not on the same level as you(or prefer playing in a way that is hardlocked in the lower Mayhem levels) by removing the potential for better loot is a horrible design. There is a reason that they introduced the cooperative loot setting that allows you to play with lower leveled players and still get good loot, so why did they introduce something that banishes the spirit of that change?

  5. It messes up cross character trading. It doesn’t matter if its between two of your own, or gifting to a friend, it warps the character its given to. As someone said below, if they were to give one of their mayhem weapons to their friend, that friend will not find a better weapon until they reach or exceed the mayhem it dropped on. Which, depending on their playstyle or dedication, could be anywhere from days to never. And for two characters of your own, if I have a weapon that drops for my M10 Fl4k that starts an idea for a build, and I give that weapon to my Moze who is at a lower Mayhem level, I can’t actually test how good the build itself is as the M10 weapon will skew the resulting DPS by up to +150%. So if you are a build theorizer like me, and want an accurate reading on how good a build is, the M10 weapons have to stay in M10 as otherwise a build that is only M4 viable might jump up to M5 or 6 just on the weapons additional power in comparison to the enemies health. And on top of this, it makes the bank even more messy as you are probably going to have weapons from all Mayhems mixing.

  6. It forces enemies health scaling to be even higher. Personally, I think the ratio of player damage to enemy health is fine for all the Mayhems. If the game didn’t feel like it was pushing you to M10, the fact that M10 has 5000% more health than your damage wouldn’t bother me as, you know, I could just play on a lower difficulty without the collector in me screaming that I need to get M10 versions of the event weapons before they are gone for a year in case I want to use one of them for a build later.

Currently the reason that M10 has a rediculous increase of 12,500% is due to the fact that players get weapons that have +150% base damage(for a total of 2.5Ă— base damage). All this does is make you stop by M6-M7 to grab a good gun(not that hard, especially with the overloaded event/M6 weapons. It might take you a few hours depending on how RNG treats you, but my M0 Love drill was able to get me through to M6) before jumping to M10 to get the best goodies(with the Yellowcake in the state it is in, I was able to jump from M6 to M10 with my Fl4k, which I did just to prove it could be done).

And the fact is, they don’t need to have gun scaling in order to entice people to play at the highest difficulty. People played on M4 without gun scaling just because it was the hardest difficulty(which allowed you to test if your build was good or not in a more stable environment), gave the most loot, had exclusive items, and had the highest annointment chance. With M10 having legendaries rain down(or at least it will once they fix whatever is causing that drop rate bug) coupled with garenteed annointments, what serious farmer wouldn’t want to play on M10?

Gun scaling isn’t nessessary for the game, and actively makes the game worse in several ways, and really should be removed for the health of the game going forward. Yes, they could technically adress each of these issues individually, but that would be more work for the same gain.


The game isn’t compelling anyone to do anything. That’s just pure human ego at work in some ppl so don’t blame the game for that one.


Bravo, I agree with every word. Weapon scaling is the dumbest thing they could have done.

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Just for curiousity’s sake:

  • Remove gear scaling in Mayhem Mode!
  • Keep gear scaling in Mayhem Mode!

0 voters

Voting a hard “remove” myself.

Of course its human ego at work, game design is all about compelling people to do specific actions to reach a goal, to claim otherwise is dumb.

This community has always been after the best versions of loot. It doesn’t matter if said loot is meta or not, if you want to play with a Surperball, why wouldn’t you want the best version of it? And in M2.0, the best version is the M10 version, as lower Mayhem level versions, regardless of their parts, will be worse.

So, by having the best versions of weapons be offered only at M10, some people(the colectors, the theorizers, the min-maxers, ect) will be compelled to get them. Its the exact same logic as having specific loot locked to a Mayhem level or above, only for everything.

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