Mayhem 11 is an admission the modifiers aren't working

After playing a bunch of M11, I decided to set M10 on one of my Mozes.

WOW was my first impression upon entering Anvil.

WOW THAT’S A LOT OF CLUTTER.

I find M10 more difficult now because it’s hard to see anything. In terms of challenge, M10 is more challenging than M11.

It’s like Arms Race where they make it challenging by removing Action Skills and Abilities, except in M10 they make it challenging by making you blind lol

4 Likes

That I can get behind :joy:

After playing M11 my eyes don’t hurt as much hahaha

2 Likes

Modifiers are fine as is and I would not be against a no modifier mode as long as it reduced drop rates across the board like with M11. It is a fair compromise to not having to deal with the modifiers and the drop rates are to high anyway so I see it as double gain! You get half the legendaries which makes it seem more like BL games of the past. Why be upset?

1 Like

I would hate your modifiers too. Most of them anyhow. I actually like some of the mayhem 10 modifiers I managed to roll into. Here are the ones I tolerate:

heally avenger - usually ok, unless it starts healing a boss
post mortem - I don’t mind those. I just wish all action kills interacted with them (rakk can kill them, but lots of other action skills ignore them)
lootsplosion is awesome
speedy thing is decent
ice thing

Unfortunately, I am only ok with that list AND I couldn’t just pick them. Having to “roll” randomly which ones are applied is goofy design. It should let me choose manually. Then it would be very similar to the modifiers in the pre sequel “circle of slaughter” like arena present in the claptrap dlc. There you can pick and choose modifiers and then go. Also, the modifiers in general are similar to moxxis underdome from BL1. Those modifiers created some problems in a sort of unfair way. Moxxis underdome wasn’t very fun.

I do agree that mayhem 11 is a great alternative to modifiers at all and that it’s sort of admitting that modifiers aren’t that great. In any case, having options are great. I may swing back to mh10 sometimes because I got my modifiers to be kinda fun. And the ones I chose provide a bunch of second wind opportunities.

Y’all asked for this. Now modifiers are dead basically.

If instead people asked for them to be rebalanced, well they would still be here and the game would be better.

It’s less an admission they don’t work, and more that the community gave them and easy and cheap way to “fix” them, by basically removing them altogether. Because ■■■■ interesting and dynamic gameplay right?

i didnt ever want them so i am happy with the current situation :slight_smile:

8 Likes

I tried out a cryo Miscreant and a rad Hex with a Mindsweeper in the Slaughter Shaft on M11 and I couldn’t see anything. Loot beams don’t really help matters there either. Too bad the enemies weren’t equally as blind.

1 Like

If they really wanted “Mayhem”, then they should have had random modifiers every time you enter/re-enter a map (transition zone, fast travel, re-spawn). Complete randomness with no ability to prepare each time. Maybe even each time you exit the menu, just to keep people from making changes on the fly. That is closer to true Mayhem.

Or if they really want to get whacko, different modifiers every time you make a kill (heh, heh).

Mayhem 11 is just an appeasement to the people that actually liked OP levels in BL2.

A sizable amount of said people if not the majority seemed to think number bloat = difficulty increase when all it did was add additional tiers to loot in BL2 while invalidating almost every build that didn’t rely on something broken in the game if you didn’t want to spend 5 minutes and almost all your ammo killing 1 bandit.

A majority of the complaints I seen about mayhem modifiers were from people who gave indication of a personal inability to adapt or be flexible. Frequently these people citing examples of themselves relying on 1 trick pony builds then hitting a modifier or set of modifiers that work against that 1 trick.

2 Likes

Not true. I’m a good example. I never played OP levels in BL2, so that statement doesn’t apply to me and I’m sure I’m not the only player who hasn’t played OP levels.

Mayhem 10 is easy as soon as you got the right gear, build, etc. Sure you can challenge yourself by using white gear in Mayhem 10. Oh wait, we have a game mode for that already.

Not sure where this majority are, but the ones I’ve seen fall into the following (but not limited to this list):

  • Too much visual clutter
  • Too difficult mods
  • Limited gear viability
  • Gated gear
3 Likes

I actually PREFER getting the fewer legendaries. I played M10 for a long time and the fewer world drops, but keeping the dedicated drops has been so nice in M11.

2 Likes

Or better still…a timer on top of all of that. And the timer rolls whether or not they change and what they change to.

Honestly, the way Moxxi’s Underdome worked, I was happy to play it. The way they introduced modifiers in this game, notsomuch.

I wonder if it’s the anointments. I could grab a random good sniper and be good for the sniper round in underdome. Can’t really do that in BL3 with anointments vs the modifiers.

I’m in that club. Never got to OP levels (but I suspect I will eventually).

Not “too difficult mods” for me, but “too frustrating mods”. Once you get the right gear, stuff isn’t hard; it’s time consuming or a not-so-challenging chore.

E.G.s

*Floor is lava just meant I made sure to run around for 5 seconds after the fight so I didn’t get killed with no mobs to self rez. Other than that, it’s not HARD to continue moving during a fight.
*Immunity to an element --> use a slightly less efficient element.
*Immunity to crits --> grind and don’t bother aiming (even LESS skill needed).
*Spinners --> Jump every so often while shooting, and it doesn’t stop shooting.
*Instadeath/roguelike --> be good enough (or lucky enough) to not go into FFYL or die and restart.

Not mayhem, not challenge…grind.

Also, gated gear. I’d be ok with some degree of gated gear, so long as it didn’t scale. Running M4 or 6 to get a really great CMOD was ok for me. Feeling like I have to play M10 to get the gear I want (just regular guns at top Mlevel) means that I’m not playing for the challenge; I’m playing for the loot. And when the loot does drop, the challenge gets easier.

It’s the RPG challenge of never getting more powerful because at lvl 1 you fight goblins, level 3 orcs, level 5 ogres, level 7 trolls, level 10 giants, and so on. M levels should break from that, because that is what the basic game mode is.

1 Like

I play on Mayhem 10 no problem, and in fact all of my modifiers benefit me.

Speed Demon is the best for Driver Amara builds.

Healy Avenger and Drone Ranger give easy/free second winds.

Post Mortem is IMO the least intrusive very hard modifier and also gives you something to shoot when in FFYL. You just have to learn to respect the skull.

Additionally, since I have massive amounts of splash damage bonuses, with ASE rad on my grenade, most things explode so violently they kill all the mayhem thingies that spawn, including the skull. It’s basically like they don’t exist, I’m just playing with Speed Demon.

As it stands the only modifiers I won’t use for my Amara are any of the element infused ones because to be immune to certain elements (namely shock and cryo) would kill my build, but I can play with anything else if I wanted. The current modifiers I have are just the optimal roll, IMO, for every character, except for Flak where you’d want Holy Crit instead (if doing a crit build).

No offence intended, but it seems that you are just picking the least intrusive modifiers + Speed Demon. Don’t get me wrong, Speed Demon is awesome - and is the main thing people miss when transitioning from M10 - M11. But if you are picking the least intrusive modifiers (ie those you can do away by splash and Hollow Point) - that’s just an admission that (most) modifiers aren’t fun.

I think if Mayhem 2.0 had worked similarly to TPS Mutator Arena, more people would have been receptive to it. This would mean that for every Mayhem level, you can select up to 4 modifiers (from 4 categories) - but they would all be optional. So people would have the option to play vanilla, but if some wanted to challenge themselves from time to time, we could turn on Floor is Lava or Rogue Lite. I mean I loved Vampire Mode in TPS, but I would have hated if it was enforced on me. Because M10 still doesn’t offer that element of choice, people are left with little choice but to perpetually play M11.

Also, BL3 could learn a thing or two from TPS regarding modifiers. Most TPS modifiers were fun - very few hurt the player, and even if they did, there was generally some form of positive tradeoff. They were sort of a pseudo Guardian Rank, which allowed players to do really cool things not normally possible (maintaining glitches with MD, stacking Maelstrom crazy fast, becoming nigh invincible with Glass Turtles etc). Contrarily, almost every non-Easy modifier is just generally a pain in the ass, discouraging players from using them.

5 Likes

The 1st iteration of Mayhem Mode definitely lived up to it’s name and it’s clear this was the design decision they were banking on. However, the community at large were obviously NOT on the same page…or book even. There was (rightfully so) a very vocal percent of the forums that HATED the idea of random modifiers that made “building” a character absolutely meaningless as builds either lived or died on the randomly selected mods. I personally didn’t mind it. I could pick up some random purple drops and lay waste to everything as long as those guns lined up well with the rolled mods. It made me use guns and skills that I normally wouldn’t but I too like coming up with unique character builds so I understood and agreed that a change was needed.

The Mayhem we have now is ok IMO. My biggest gripe is the gear scaling but I doubt they could reverse it now. Mayhem should feel like a progression and as it stands right now I can see no reason not to immediately skip to Mayhem 10 (or 11) and farm vending machines/chests for some decent starter gear and lean heavily into your action skill to carry you until you get the gear you want.

i think when ppl said make mayhem mods like halo mods
with stuff such as
more agressive enemies
smarter enemies
enemies throwing stuff like granades back
fun stuff like children party noises
harder shields but normal health
less ammo

things i can select and choose to any degree i want
speak i can have as many on as i wish with no extra stuff
no punishment
just making the game harder as i please with no ( less loot, or less dmg, or evem more enemy health)
just
the
mods

but for whatever reason thy rly closed eyes and ears ignored all feedback and put some of the worst old mods from 1.0 into 2.0 speak less crit TWICE added immunities and so on

imagine the hell if they had added bullet reflection

m11 is pretty much a surr as mayhem 4 was in 1.0
they will do 1 of 2 things
rework mayhem AGAIN
or
let m11 be the end of it and say thats it

both do basically nothing and everything at the same time
no dumb mods and no work
or
work and MAYBE better mods ( propably leave m11 version in this time)

I got to OP8 with only 2 legendary weapons…

Infinity and a Harold… The rest where purple world drops…

So yeah, nice hyperbole…

Oh and I did it with 1 friend AND solo…

That’s the point since mayhem 1.0
People don’t want modifiers that benefit them either
They want an unaltered, balanced game experience

4 Likes

Or actuall risk/reward instead of the current blatant handicap OR straight buff :joy:

1 Like