Mayhem 2.0 - What can still bring the fun back

But first it needs a revision. I know some say that current modifiers are ok. That’s totally fine and I respect that. I just like to go through the modifiers and share my personal view.

Before I go through each, my view is that each level should bring gradual difficulty without rendering any of the previous modifiers as null. Therefore any modifiers should complement each-other without overruling. I will add detail when I feel I need to, otherwise I will just say ok.

My definitions for modifiers level that might help with some of the below comments

  • Easy: modifiers that should always help the VH regardless of VH’s build or class.
    -Medium: modifiers that brings a light increase in difficulty, without overruling easy modifiers
  • Hard: complements medium modifiers or bring additional difficulty without overruling previous modifiers
  • Very Hard: complements medium and hard modifiers or bring additional difficulty without overruling previous modifiers

EASY

  • Lootsplosion - OK
  • Moore than Okay Boomer - needs to be removed. Maybe with grenades damage increased by 1000% to be used for some fun grenade builds, something not feasible since hex nerf. Otherwise is not helpful in any way.
  • Slayer - ok although I would remove it as it’s not a strong enough benefit unless special class / builds /situation
  • Speed Demon: it’s ok, although I will tone it down a bit, to 30% x3. For me 50%x3 becomes too hectic
  • Big Kick Energy - ok without the recoil and spread impact or maybe just to be reduced to 25% or even to 15%. It hinders a bit too much for easy.
    -Brain Galaxy: OK

MEDIUM

  • (Random) Element Infuse: ok
  • Mob Mentality: OK
  • Healy Avenger: OK
  • Freeze Tag: OK but the orb appearance should be slightly reduce and the HP reduced to 15% from current and without any damage type reduction. It should be targetable (pets, SNTL, chain weapons, ricochet, etc.)
  • Floor is Lava: OK ONLY if lava damage and lingering is reduced by 50% and that it also damage the foes. Otherwise it should be in Hard
  • Pain Tolerance: out. Best case moved to Hard if not Very Hard. Although this is a challenge mode, details below.

HARD

  • Ticked Off: this is weird as simply renders Maliwan inefficient. Makes no sense. Besides 90% is too much anyway. I would remove it.
  • Chain Gang: OK, although this is a medium one not hard.
  • Pool Party: same comment as in Floor is Lava. This is an environment effect, therefore needs to be as efficient on goes as is on VHs.
  • Laser Fare: OK. However, frequency and HP should be reduced. Also the spinners should not have any damage type resistance. It should be targetable (pets, SNTL, chain weapons, ricochet, etc.)

Very Hard

  • Rouge Light: our! Does not bring any added value to the gameplay or fun. This should be a challenge mode game/quest on top of mayhem. More about it later.
  • Post Mortem: out. Same as above. Besides, the skull should have maybe only 15-20% of current HP and not to be resistant to any type of damage. It should be targetable (pets, SNTL, chain weapons, ricochet, etc.)
  • Dazed and Infused: fine. However it should always be only one on the foe. Sometimes a foe have 2 elements.
  • Not in the face: reduction is far too high. At mad 50% but I would go with 30%
  • Buddy System: our. Unless the drone respects the collision physics, HP reduced to 20-30% if current and is not resistant to any damage type. It should be targetable (pets, SNTL, chain weapons, ricochet, etc.)
  • Holy Crit: OK. Non-crit though I would reduce it to 25%

There are other that can be added

  • Easy: each 3rd consecutive crit, doubles crit damage for 3s. Each non-crit resets the count.
  • Easy: Killing an enemy have 30% chance to activate all equipped anointments.
  • Easy: while moving you get 25% damage reduction and while standing still you have 30% chance that any hit to be a crit hit and ricochet to nearby enemies.
  • Medium: There is a 20% chance not to damage the enemy (every 5th hit does nothing, miss hits resets the count)
  • Medium: 20% chance when hit to be pulled to the enemy (respecting volition and not outside of the map)
  • Hard: Enemies regenerates health, shield and armor if not damaged for 5s.
    -Hard: 15% chance that enemies that hit you will spawn an additional enemy. The enemy that bring you in FFYL will spawn a badass commander. Effect not applicable to bosses.
  • Very Hard: Enemies are linked. When killed, will heal 20% of life, armor and shield to all linked enemies, based on what the killed enemy had. Bosses and mini-bosses cannot be linked.
  • Very Hard: all anointments effects are reduced by 50%.

And so on and so forth…

Challenge Mode

This is something I talked about before and is on top of any selected mayhem mode. As I see it, it can be done in 3 ways:

  1. Game mode: instead of Normal or TVHM to have Challenge Mode
  2. To be activated from ECHO at any time.
  3. To be part of weekly Activities e.g. proving grounds, quests in previous events maps, events, raid, special slaughter, etc. These are redressed weekly through the hotfix system.

While in challenge mode, any drop will have a chance to get a drop from badasses and named enemies a Guardian Booster that will infuse you for 2h. New booster will reset the countdown. The infused VH will have 10% increase of every single attribute from every equipped items, positive or negative. Damage, elemental, health, anointment effect, precision, reload, etc. anything listed on any of the item that is equipped, changing an item will loose its booster until another Guardian Booster is found. Guardian Booster is automatically applied on pick-up. It is not a consumable.

Surely,the booster drop rate is lower but the chance is increased with each run. On top of this, all items dropped here tend to be on the higher end on quality, which means bigger chance to get max damage weapons, max crit damage, magazine, etc.

Challenges (remember, these are on top of mayhem mode)

  • Post Mortem
  • Rogue Light
  • Pain Tolerance: although I would change it to on kill and increased to 10s to all enemies
  • Pain Affinity: similar with pain tolerance but per weapon type.
  • Switch and Shoot: each kill will decrease the weapon damage by 10% stacking up to 10 times but increase all other weapon types by 20% per stack. It resets with each kill performed with a different weapon type.

Anyway, this is how I see it. Mayhem mode should bring difficulty but never to hinder the fun of playing.

And if you reach this part of the post, congrats! You really like borderlands to succeed and you care! Thank you!

It’s actually really good because it synergizes with Overkill which works on all characters.

True but the bonus is too limited and situational. It also breaks the flow to get the bonus for next shot! So…

Although fits to “easy” it’s situational while in my view easy needs to be more direct, standard and less conditional. Just my view

  1. Letting us kill Ava.

  2. Fixing gear drops!

  3. Fixing gear drops!!!

  4. FIXING GEAR DROPS!!!

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Mayhem doesn’t need revised, it needs scrapped.

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I would suggest that once you’ve reached end game you really have no need for anything that would help you or otherwise make the game easier. I think the easy modifiers are a bit pointless tbh.

I think that would be harder now than updating it. This is linked with what I said in another post about a non-implemented item management. As the need to tackle the hardcode 1 by 1 for each item to balance it, taking out the modifiers will alienate even more the gameplay until we will have something remotely close to a balanced game.

For better or worst, now there is a challenge. Forget that is weird, unbalanced and utterly pointlessly forced most of the time. But without it the game will have no challenge at all. With the new weapons especially, you just walk in M10 if no modifiers. Boredom is worst than a bad modifier.

Now, bringing down those weapons and removing the mayhem brings other issues that I think are far worst, both in regards of gameplay and options to recover from it. As there are not many choices to play with and with all mobs simply bullet sponges, it looses any challenge and fun in a blink of an eye.

They told us that we will use state idle the art cars on a super highway. They promised an experience like never before and that wonderful wonders will accompany us on our journey. And yes, they delivered an unpaved road, in a middle of the desert and gave us a bicycle. At night. We cannot even say that it’s hard but the view is great as there is no way to view … well… the view.

Without metaphors, I think there is still a chance to get mayhem right. Personally I believe that good modifiers can bring challenge and fun at the same time. I hate bullet sponge. Then we complain about it and they increase the damage and M10 feels like M4 now and then… what? It is not the way for diversity. The way is better and smarter modifiers that will bring a healthy challenge without jeopardizing the experience or hinder the gameplay.

The good: they stated that are aware of loot and mayhem issues. The bad: only a patch will do when ready. The very bad: I don’t think we will have a patch before June 4th. Unless they do it before Guardian Takedown. They must. Delivering that in current state of the game it will be disastrous.

Hmm where do i begin and expect edits as I remember what modifier is breaking what;

First off with the Immunities
People forget that it’s not a matter of switching to a different gun. This breaks skill choices as well as what would be viable in annointments (sntl cryo/Gamma burst 115, ASE 2 mag Element/Others) without them. Also breaks Elemental builds (Rad/Cryo)
I believe green monster class mod (Moze) will be impacted. I also forgot augments cryo rakks /etc

Floor is lava is a pain, game also has small areas. This makes it annoyance for Iron bear/ Fl4k as he does more damage standing still besides the fact that its bugged. Having movespeed on class mod or artifact or in skill helps deal with it for both fl4k and moze or slow moving builds. I believe pool party cause close to the same problems however can be of use if wearing a transformer or having an elemental projector Artifact.

Someone else pointed out Sliding playstyle on zane is broken which also breaks the antifreeze class mod.

Aside from the above;

I feel the modifers are a system of limits not opportunities;
Save Slayer/Speed demon, They generally scream don’t use crit builds, don’t use cryo builds, don’t use elemental builds, don’t have accuracy. Some of my builds on mayhem 10 suffer more. Rerolling is a nightmare. Lest we forget these break multiplayer as its the hosts control.

On the opinion side I find them an annoyance, not fun not challenging. Galaxy brain takes away the satisfaction on landing my crits as well as creates screen clutter. I could go on but pointless to do so

Lately my gameplay as of late consists of firing up the game, and instead of just choosing what build i feel like playing look at modifiers then quickly close it.

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The fact you think slayer is limited or situational is kind of crazy. You can literally just turn it on and it makes any playthrough you’re doing better lol. Slayer should actually be apart of the base game imo, or be fl4ks dominance capstone. It’s actually that good. Your comments on it genuinely make me think you haven’t tried playing with it enough lol.

Random element infusion ok??? Do you just play kinetic weapons.

IMO any modifier that just reduces damage for no reason should be removed. That was literally what we hated about Mayhem 3. Make them be infused with element and do bonus elemental damage, don’t make them immune.

Pool Party needs to only affect certain enemies, or deal less damage. A bit much imo.

Rogue Light’s main issue is this game was designed to knock you into ffyl. I love the idea of rogue lite, but barrels need to be removed while it’s active. I guess it’s up to you to not use splash weapons.

Post Mortem, honestly not bad if it had less health and lingered for a bit less time.

Not in the face: this goes with all the other damage immune ones for no reason, Pain Tolerance too. These are just stupid. Like I said this is exactly what we hated about Mayhem 3 the first time around.

Holy Crit, I like how this is a tradeoff, but I strictly avoid it since it’ll actually make you lose more overall damage even in a fl4k build than you realize. You’ll definitely notice your brainstormer (i mean reflux) doing less damage.

When it comes to floor is lava, they need to somehow fix it in certain situations, moze can’t exit ib without catching a small burn, I noticed this does not play well with cut scenes, I’m always on fire when skipping Wotan’s cut scene. I don’t know if I just die if I don’t skip it, haven’t tried yet. And it stays on for too long after all enemies are dead. But I don’t mind this mode so much personally.

Also I wanted to say I noticed the cryo orb will knock me back into ffyl if I kill an enemy right in my face to get a second wind. I think chain gang knocks you back in ffyl easily too. I should get some footage of this happening and send it in though.

nah… made a topic on why they shouldn’t :wink:

Modifiers are a bad idea in general
Challenges for a rewarding bonus however would be OK since they would be optional

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they are a bad idea the way GBX implanted it into the game :wink:

people asked for higher difficulty… GBX gave us baloons and big heads…

like i explained in my topic, mayhem and difficulty modifier should be split…

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@garfield1283 You are correct. Splitting it is an option. Unfortunately though, current game build that took more months to build than is live, will not allow this. UI needs to be totally rebuild while data load to be queried accordingly. This is why there is Virtually no difference between Normal and TVHM. Is we could select TVHM from start, the only difference is scaling enemies to your level which should have been from the start anyway.

Borderlands 3 have clear chronic design issues. Post launch roadmap I think was added too late in development. As such, I doubt they will change the current approach.

A middle ground would be Mayhem levels with ior w/o modifiers (on/off switch). They can alter the drop rate, I donno, to A REAL 1200% on w/o modifiers and REAL 2500% on with. Even so, modifiers needs total overhaul. Like this might be something that meets both worlds.

Personally I prefer gameplay challengers. Similar with what they did with cartel troops appearance is something I said I would like to see as difficulty/challenge variation in an older post. You know, going by killing stuff and then a super badasses of that enemy type appear to kick your but. Bug you are better. And do a portal is open to a map (new ones, random, proving ones, event ones, any small direct path map). You can go an kill there elite bunch of foes ending in a super badass. These with some specific reward too.

There are literally 1000s if way to do it. This is not an issue. The actual issue is what realistically can be done using Borderlands 3 code frame. All comes from how the framework is design. In Destiny they soft coded all weapons so they can balance it anytime in any order and any combination which also means that can be delivered via quick hotfix/update, while in BL3 they do it one by one directly into the code. Why do you think is so hard to simply do… I donno … more weapons of same class and even manufacturer on the similar damage output per magazine ? Because they need to update the code…

Therefore, even though your point is a valid one, I doubt they can do it. Not fast enough to still have someone playing, anyway. So, we need feasible ways to make the game enjoyable and rewarding again using the existing platform. Rewriting the core code is like doing a new game, so…

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@tiger1020x Regarding immunities, I got what you say. However this is an old method to break the monotony. Nevertheless, I’m not a fun of those either but are manageable. Personally I believe that would be less annoying if gets too s 20% more damage from other elements, not kinetic.

And why elements when they can add aura with 20-30% all damage type reduction, and lower the density and never for bosses or mini bosses?

mayhem is added :slight_smile:

what i’m suggesting is pretty easy to do… requires nothing added :wink:

only thing they need to do is remove the buffs from mayhem and put it into a seperate mode.

it’s like BL2 (iirc the TVHM and UVHM worked that way and then you got OP levels) but with the added posibility of adding mayhem modifiers.

increasing difficulty should also gain the increased loot (using mayhem should yield it’s own reward as gaining something and giving something in return -> more crit damage but lower normal damage)

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Forgive me but I would not consider this a managable system as I’m limited to making builds (I have very many from this game and the last) that can surpass All modifiers. I’ve stated it before in other posts that I among others (that i know and play with) derive pleasure from coming up with unique builds and playing them on weekends in a group. That is destroyed due to many of the modifiers. I believe the heart of the series was based on creative build making

On a side note were you speaking of trading sntl cryo/gamma 115 for Action skill Active 200 to make things manageable? I failed to mention that on purpose as i haven’t done solid testing other than swapping them out. They seem to not do as well as the original counterparts damage wise. Like i previously stated I will be updating whats getting broken as i recall it.

I’ve scratched and banged my head on how to fix this system not just for me/my friends/members of my group but for others that seem to enjoy them. I’m just at a loss other than a revert or a disable feature that doesn’t penalise.

If I killed your thread please forgive me as that was not intentional. If you people can get a working solution for everyone please do.

Biggest issue in my opinion is the mods are almost all way too one sided. They either hurt or help with no real middleground or give and take, and there’s no incentive to ever run with some of the more annoying ones.

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One complaint I have is I really do not believe GB cares if it’s fun. They just want to make it difficult and have completely forgotten that a game is supposed to be fun. I thought the idea of MH was stupid to begin with, just like Digistruct Peak in BL2. I’d rather they focus on developing new content with new weapons. It doesn’t need to be full blown DLC, as their DLC generally lacks in quality (BL 3 DLC 2 was perhaps the most poorly conceived DLC I’ve ever played–I still don’t know what the actual story was). Throw in some raid bosses, a few more proving grounds, open up some new areas on existing maps (e.g, buildings that are not accessible), etc. and just let people kill things and fine new rare loot.

I appreciate the fact they do listen to the players and try to make improvements and also get that with everyone working at home it’s not as easy to do certain things as before. But I just don’t have any faith there is anything that can or will be done to make the game fun and instead it will continue to be tedious and broken. We’re 8 months into the game and the number of bugs/crashes/etc. that still exist from launch across all platforms and that are introduced every single time there is a new hotfix or patch is just unacceptable.

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I have a revolutionary idea, but please sit down for it:

how about you just give us the ability to turn off the modifiers instead of this convoluted, vomit inducing mess?

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