Mayhem Modifiers aren't very... Mayhemmy?

I get what GB was trying to do with Mayhem Mode, and totally respect it. The idea is to introduce quirks that challenge people to step out of their usual loadout or optimized builds, shake things up and make them unpredictable, all that.

But these modifiers, by and large, just don’t do that.

  1. The fact that two exactly opposite mods can roll up at the same time? Huge oversight. Some mods need some mutual exclusivity – like do you want use to use long guns or short guns this time? Or how can you have all of the element debuffs and then ALSO lower normal bullet damage? (AND give the enemies another 45% everything)

  2. Most of the mods, even when not directly conflicting, don’t add challenge. They just add time. That’s “mayhem” in the same way that long lines at the DMV are “insanity.” No, they’re the same as short lines, they just… take… more… time… Nothing is added to the experience but waiting.

So, mix things up a bit. Take some of these mods and break them up into different ones. Add some that do WEIRD stuff. Y’know, create MAYHEM. Here’s some changes I’d personally love to see:

  • Make opposing mods mutually exclusive. If we are buffing assault rifles and nerfing shotguns, we aren’t also nerfing assault rifles and buffing shotguns.

  • Limit the number of Element-Specific Debuffs to, say, two at a time.

  • Do +45% armor OR shields OR health, but not always all three in one. That’s already covered by the fact that we’re in Mayhem Mode!

But long term? Let’s talk about entirely new mods! Here are some that would add challenge, push for some variety, and make things feel pretty Mayhemmy. The goal of any Mayhem Modifier should be to:

a) Challenge a particular playstyle, to shake players out of comfort zones (but into others!)
b) Make the battlefield unpredictable, to make players pay attention
c) Give the player something new, fun, or funny to look at
d) ANYTHING but just make fights a slog

Here are a few examples. They’re not necessarily suggestions, but they provide examples of what I’m getting at above – they might make fights harder, but not just by making them take more time… or they might just be something weird that happens.

  1. “You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry” – critical hits have an X% chance to apply a random buff to enemies - maybe a short heal-over-time, a melee or gun damage buff, an elemental aura for a few seconds, shield recharge, just throw a few in a list and roll.

  2. “Oops, All Tinks” – all non-boss enemies are Tinks (increased chance for Loot Tinks, too), enemy movement speed increased by X%

  3. “I Thought YOU Brought the Ammo” – Enemies don’t drop ammo or health! (chests remain unchanged)

  4. “Cornered the Market” – a buff/debuff of certain BRANDS instead of elements or gun types

  5. “Butterfingers!” – when throwing grenades, X% chance it’ll drop at your feet instead (short cooldown on this one)

  6. “A Taste of Your Own Medicine” – when you inflict a status effect on an enemy, X% chance you’ll get the same (half duration).

  7. “Roid-al Rumble” – all enemies have +X00% melee damage

  8. “Three Tinks in a Trenchcoat” – Badass enemies spawn 1-3 tinks on death

  9. “Squish Squish Zoom” – Badass enemies take X% more damage, but gain Y% movement speed and fire rate

  10. “This Particular Individual is Unscannable” – Enemy health bars are randomly hidden for a few seconds

  11. “All the Latest Tech” – On enemy shield break, there is an X% chance they will: create an elemental nova, gain a damage buff, create a push or pull nova, gain 5 seconds of immunity… you know, all the stuff our shields can do

  12. “Not Falling for THAT Again” – Killing an enemy with a melee or weapon attack gives nearby enemies resistance to that same weapon for X seconds, but weapon change speed increased by Y%

  13. “A World of OSHA Violations” – Barrels and environmental hazards deal X00% more damage, and barrels have increased radius

Throw some more ideas in here, let’s get weird…

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I like these. Maybe play with gravity as well, have it lowered like Skywell.

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I thought about that EXACT thing… but the reason I didn’t put it in, is I could see the argument that it would screw with level boundaries if you could suddenly jump a lot higher and farther into unintended areas.

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This ones my favorite. :joy: I would actually like to see literally three tinks in a trenchcoat where the only way to get them would be to head shot the one up top, then head shot the one on the middle, then head shot the one on bottom. If you fail to do it on that order then another tink jumps on and they upgrade to 4 badass tinks in a trenchcoat (Ha Ha you missed one) and maybe have it cap out at 5 super badass tinks (ok this is just ridiculous). On the 5 it doesn’t matter if you get the head shots or not.

Maybe it can also have a possibility of creating a rare spawn that also has a possibility of dropping rare loot. Like maybe a play off of “Little Rascals”.

All of the suggestions are really good!:grin:

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Would deeeefintely love to see extra stuff like that, but for now I tried to keep the first round of suggestions to things they already have the assets for and could just rearrange them…

…besides, if you could TELL that Badass Militant is three tinks in a trenchcoat, it’s not a very good disguise, right?

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Add some that do WEIRD stuff. Y’know, create MAYHEM.

I keep suggesting this stuff and don’t get any interest. If I were cynical I might suggest that players like these boring modifiers because it gives them a bunch of Item Luck with very little change in gameplay.

But anyway, hopefully a dedicated topic to the subject will get more traction.


The Tinks have been busy building new machines to spread mayhem!

  • Tinks all use random Tediore guns and can use their reload and Legendary effects. (You’d better interrupt their reloads with melee or risk facing those freaky Brain Turrets or Homing MIRVs)

  • Tink Turrets can be equipped by other enemies like exo-armor, so essentially they become like mobile turrets with extra armor.

  • New Enemy: Bio-Tinks
    When they die, they leave a puddle of goo on the floor. Any enemies the step into the puddle will level up into Badasses or Annointed.


  • Rakk Bombers
    Rakks can drop grenades as if they were doing a bombing run. The grenades can damage everyone.

  • Spiderant Infestation
    Spiderants can now appear on any map, they burst up out of the ground, from the walls, etc.

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Funny, I’ve had the same experience. I mentioned another game(Enter the Gungeon) that did the Mayhem thing, but better. Granted, the game is far less voluminous, but still. Mayhem mode should change how the game behaves, not just change stats.

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I like them all, and while this one wouldn’t bother me there’s already enough “why isn’t there more ammo” complaints with “try using terror builds” as retorts… It’d be nice if the topics could just be actual discussions instead of bickering so maybe just leave this one out?

I think it could add an amount of tension to some builds, or even just some fights. I’ve never really found myself totally at a loss for ammo, if I’ve been willing to switch guns… and if someone isn’t, it’s because they’re leaning heavily (maybe too heavily) on a particular weapon group.

The point of Mayhem is specifically to challenge that. Out of AR ammo? Get out that pistol you never use. I mean, that’s part of why sidearms exist!

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This is why I don’t personally have an issue - one of my builds is themed around guns that reload after every shot. That limits the character to shotguns, pistols, and heavy weapons (that I’ve found so far). As a result I’ve gotten very used to melee to replenish ammo overall.

That said, I still think it would become the most complained about modifier in the list.

With the new patch, and new Mayhem 4, I think it’s worth kicking back up a discussion about what the future of Mayhem Mode should look like.

I’m still a big fan of getting rid of any modifier whose effect can be boiled down to “makes fights longer.” The mode itself already increases all stats for enemies, so that’s covered.

Modifiers that change the balance of stats (ie, more shields/less armor, or more armor/less health, etc.) would be more interesting, because they encourage the player to CHANGE tactics, not just do the normal one longer.

But I’d still love to see modifiers that do more to make the game unpredictable and chaotic.

  • Give enemies auras, to shake up those melee builds.
  • Boost melee damage on armor
  • Make enemy bullets ricochet
  • Short-circuit everyone’s shields so they might randomly drop for 2 seconds (then come back where they were, of course)

Just… stuff that makes the fight weirder, not just more numbery.

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They did mention that they were planning an overhaul,“Mayhem 2.0” they called it. I really hope this is the philosophy they’ll adopt for it.

Yesterday, my jaw dropped all the way to Japan when I saw the Sponge Mayhem modifiers…still, I managed to beat the Rampager without the use of legendaries(I like challenge). But I can’t imagine what mobbing must feel like, or the Slaughters. But I get what they were going for: to provide a “challenge” to all the legendary synergies out there.

They HAVE to make things differently at this point, especially if they’re planning to add more levels of Mayhem, or what would Mayhem 5 be? 1500% Health? 3000? Not only would it be a bit ridiculous, it would severely limit the number of viable builds/gears. Or maybe that’s the point?

But they’ve even expressly stated their goal is to shake up the usual builds and get people to try new things… I just don’t think they’re putting enough time into thinking, “Does this modifier DO THAT?”

Increasing stats just makes fights longer.

Decreasing overall damage just… does the same thing from the other end.

Flat increases to enemy damage edge out survivability builds and encourage a limited number of min-max builds – burn 'em before they burn you.

Blanket boosts to enemy accuracy and fire rate are just stealth buffs to damage (again).

Most “increase this number” modifiers are just lengthening fights or punishing builds that aren’t min-maxed for damage. They don’t encourage new tactics… or any tactics at all!

I’m a teacher, and sometimes I want to make a particular assignment more challenging to get students thinking… but I don’t make it more “challenging” by adding more questions or pages, or by shortening the amount of time they have. Those don’t change how they think, just say “Do what you’re already doing, but longer or faster.”

Getting students to think harder requires removing the familiar path, but ensuring another is open to them. Something like, “For this assignment, you can’t use the word…” or “Show your answer in the form of a diagram instead of a fraction” or something.

Just adding length or shortening time is a lazy approach, and while easier, does not achieve the desired result.

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SCATTER! - When you kill an enemy, nearby enemies get X% movement speed for Y seconds (challenging those grenade/splash/phaseslam builds)

VOODOO DOLL - critical hits return 10% damage to you (sorry, FL4K)

OPPOSITE DAY - all HUD elements and enemy health bars are reversed (just for kicks)

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I must have missed that part…haha, yeah…Mayhem 4 is not even close to achieving that.

Pretty much my thought when I finished the Rampager. What was usually a 2-3 mins fight ended being 10 minutes long, or something like that. It was not more “difficult” per se, but it definitely dragged on, and I tend to focus on damage. Not the kind of challenge I want.

I really like the way you think with your students, if it’s not too much to ask, what are you teaching?

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Also here’s a few modifiers that I think could be cool:

All for one…: All enemies are invulnerable unless a specific target is killed.

And one for all! : One enemy cannot be killed unless its allies are eliminated.

The Agonizing : Random areas are highlighted, and after few seconds, combust.(Just like in The Agonizer fight)

Baby, you’re a firework : On death(players or enemies), release a volley of rockets in random directions.

Your Affection: For the duration, all COV that spawns are suiciders(don’t remember their name).

Re-stating again for like the last 5 posters who obviously missed the co-op, the streams, the patch notes, the countless posts, and every other source of this information.

Mayhem 4 is not the revised mayhem. It’s something they gave us to allieviate the randomness so many people complained about in MH3. MH4 is basically MH3 with the most nerfs you could roll, simple as that.

MAYHEM 2.0 which is the revisited mayhem idea is coming early NEXT YEAR

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Currently, Band (not exactly the usual, I know) :slight_smile:

Solid ideas – particularly the musketeers ones!

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Oh, I don’t think anyone is mistakenly thinking that.

That’s why were using the opportunity to think ahead at what the revision WILL be, because M1-3 aren’t fun, and M4 doesn’t exactly inspire confidence that they’re thinking in the right direction.

The problem isn’t the randomness. The problem is that the rolling of modifiers is the ONLY randomness, because all the modifiers themselves just make the game a slog (or way too easy, if you roll lucky).

Mayhem should make the gameplay feel more “random,” not just a single die roll at the beginning that determines whether this session will be Fun or Not.

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I wasn’t replying to the 2 recent comments that were just throwing ideas out there. I was commenting on the ones saying MH4 failed to do this or that. I know I was a bit vague who I was targeting and that’s because it was more of a general statement about a common theme around here lately.

Although I would suggest someone compile a nice list of the ideas you guys have and make a topic dedicated to it because some of them are good. Some arent <3

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