Mayhem modifiers should be removed from the game

Mayhem modifiers do absolutely no good for the game and are nothing but an incredible nuisance that should be taken out of the game. Please, let me elaborate:

Mayhem modifiers pigeonhole your weapon choices
We hunt and grind for loot to get strong and fun weapons that we like to use. But Mayhem modifiers will often force you into not using them. If you get -50% gun damage and -50% SMG, Assault Rifle and Shotgun damage, you simply cannot use these weapons. If you happen to have an incendiary SMG and you get -50% incendiary and/or elemental damage in addition to the above, well, good luck using that weapon. So just put aside your favorite weapons and look for alternatives that you don’t really want to use. Is this fun? No, absolutely not. It does nothing good for the game. Pigeonholing people into using things they don’t want is terrible design.

Mayhem modifiers ruin multiplayer
Very often the Mayhem modifiers will give bonuses that are excellent for one player, but horrible for another. So now these players have to play through the map with extremely disproportionate modifiers. One player will breeze through it, while the other will experience a frustrating struggle. Does this make the game more fun? No, absolutely not. It’s just incredibly annoying when one player must carry the other just because the map tells you so. Games are more fun when all players can contribute at least somewhat proportionally.

Mayhem modifiers ruin builds and gear loudouts
Similar to the first point I mentioned about being pigeonholed into using certain types of weapons, the same thing can happen to your spec and worn equipment. Are you an elemental or melee specced Amara, but the map gives you plenty of negative modifiers in your specialized area? Well, you may have to respec just because the map tells you so. Not only this, but you may have to switch out your artifact, shield and class mod as well. You may even have to play a spec that you don’t want to play, just to adapt to what the map tells you. Just remember that you may have to switch yet again on the next map. Is this fun? No, absolutely not. It brings nothing positive to the game. Forcing players to constantly switch up what they use or forcing them into playing something they don’t like is never a good thing.

Mayhem modifiers is abhorrent to inventory management
Since Mayhem modifiers may tell you at any point that you can’t use your SMG, Assault Rifle, Shotgun or your incendiary or corrosive weapon etc. you will need to take with you a whole bunch of different extra weapons so that you can switch when the Mayhem modifiers tell you so. With bank and inventory space already being incredibly limited, this adds further strain to an already frustrating experience. You simply can’t bring only your favorite loadout and then keep your inventory clean. You have to bring a whole arsenal of extra weapons and items to switch back and forth constantly or you’re just not going to be very efficient. Is this fun? No, absolutely not. It’s incredibly tedious and frustrating and nothing good comes out of it.

Some Mayhem modifiers are unbearable
Did you play a map with a bullet reflection modifier yet? Unless you have great ways to recover life constantly, you might as well just skip playing these maps altogether, or go rebuild your character so that you can run them. You simply can’t run these maps if your survival strategy is to not get hit, because if you want to kill things, you will kill yourself. Is this fun? No, absolutely not. It adds nothing interesting to the game and is just frustrating to play with.

Mayhem modifiers make people fish for the right modifiers
Did you get modifiers that you simply cannot cope with or that you just don’t like? An option for many is to simply restart maps over and over until they get something they can deal with. Is this fun? No, absolutely not. It adds nothing positive to the game. Restarting maps over and over is not fun and feels incredibly cheezy. It would be much better if we could just run any map at any time with the build and equipment that we like to use.

Mayhem modifiers don’t do what they’re meant to do
The reason Mayhem modifiers exist is to make the game harder. With some luck or some modifier fishing, it can do exactly the opposite. You may get negative modifiers that don’t really affect you, and get bonuses that are great for you instead. This can have the reverse effect of Mayhem modifiers actually making the game easier instead of harder, and it’s incredibly counterproductive to what it is supposed to accomplish.

To summarize
Mayhem modifiers bring nothing positive to the game. All it does is to add frustration and remove choice from the player. Borderlands is no longer about running the build you like and shooting with the guns you love, because now there are Mayhem modifiers that tell you which guns you should use and how you should play.

There is no reason why we shouldn’t be able to run certain maps with certain builds or use the weapons we love. There is no good reason why, in multiplayer, one player should get great benefits while the other is forced into uselessness. There are better, more general ways to increase the difficulty level than this. Mayhem modifiers are already making me not want to play the game anymore due to all the frustration they bring.

Forcing players to constantly monitor what the Mayhem modifiers tell them and having them adapt their playstyle to it is a major design failure that should be abolished from the game. Games are about having fun, and Mayhem modifiers bring nothing of that.

141 Likes

Maybe mayhem mode just isn’t for you.

Just turn it off or limit yourself to mayhem 1. The only thing I agree on is the storage issue because it does make looting a pain.

23 Likes

absolutely agree. give set difficulty levels instead.

mayhem 1 this and this % health and shield increase. mayhem 2 more of that mayhem 3 even more of that.

to put it in randy’s own words lets speak if it is fun. is it fun to have enemies reflect bullets? shock bosses resisting shock? fire bosses resisting fire? absolutely not.

to put it simply: give enemies more of survival and speed (better a.i is too much to ask for) do not give enemies randomass rezistencies bullet reflection and double projectiles.

i am used to op10 balance of bl2 but it was no â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â–  and that is what i liked about it (while poorly balanced ultimately challenging and fun to play for me)

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I agree, in that Mayhem mode doesn’t make the game more difficult, not really, but just more complicated.

You open the map, check the modifiers and “deck accordingly”.

And if you use the “right tools for the job”, it’s basically just like having no mayhem mode at all.

I’d rather have a flat increase in difficulty, with maybe an added bonus of adding more enemies, tougher enemies, maybe different enemies? Think Diablo 2 LOD, when they started to add enemies from other acts. Made the whole game a new experience.

But making it “-50% damage with smg” and “+50% damage with shotgun” is just making people not using smg and favor a shotgun.

Make the game fun, not complicated, lol.

Oh and if you do, at least allow us for quick change load outs…

27 Likes

Can’t play on Mayhem 1 because it doesn’t pose any challenge whatsoever. It’s mindlessly boring. I want to be challenged, but I don’t want the game to tell me which builds and weapons to use every single time I change map. Just up enemy health, speed and damage. Don’t give us the Mayhem modifier crap.

15 Likes

Somewhat I kinda agree and disagree.

I enjoy the extra drop rates, but don’t like the extra BS that comes from the modifiers.

I got one once that was absolutely ■■■■■■■■. -35% dmg for ARs and Snipers +35% for SMG/Pistol/Shotty, +35% dmg for AR/Sniper -35% for smg pistol and shotty, and then -35% weapon damage. Being Zane, bullet reflection does’nt really affect me too much when I can digi clone and sit behind cover and toss alien tediore homing death from the safety of cover.

What I don’t want is the crap from 2, with UVHM. I don’t like feeling like I am fighting enemies 10 levels higher than me all the time. Or that OP level lameness that completely invalidated all loot you had every time you went up a level. God am I glad they haven’t done that again, or went with the WoW idealology of huge numbers for damage on weapons that make you think this is a god tier weapon but that 300k means crap because that trash mob has several million/billion hit points you gotta burn through.

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I actually really enjoy the Mayhem modifiers. It makes each run different and challenges you to use other weapons every so often.

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I disagree. I use four different weapon types and elements, and don’t change my playstyle based on modifiers. I don’t even pay attention to them, I just play. If the difference is noticeable, I don’t use the affected gun/s as much in that area, but they’re still not rendered totally obsolete. If the modifiers were removed, I’m sure we’d start getting complaints about how TVHM is too easy. As it is, there are no shortage of posts here or on reddit making that very claim. BL2 copped that same flak even in UVHM.

The one thing I really liked about the OP levels was that they were entirely optional. If you thought they were too hard or unbalanced, you could turn them off and there was no reason to complain. The same goes for Mayhem, the key difference being that you don’t have to farm for higher level gear or complete a gauntlet ten times.

If you think the game is too easy, Mayhem is for you. If you think M3 is too hard, there’s M1 and M2 to alleviate that. If you don’t like the multipliers and disagree on impermanent variables that make the game harder, well, there’s just no pleasing everyone. If you think normal is too easy, I doubt you’d have a much harder time on M3 without the modifiers, that’s where the challenge lies in Mayhem mode. Enemies that just have flat health and damage increases, we’ve seen that before and look at how easily an optimally built character piloted by a skilled player could tear through OP10. Now we have a challenge. Changing your loadout based on modifiers is just counterplay, it’s how we fought raid bosses in BL2. Now, mobbing is a challenge too. It may change in the future, maybe a feature to turn modifiers off, but for now I’m happy that my endgame mobbing is actually hard for a change.

21 Likes

Didn’t tried Mayhem yet. but if there are modifiers that affects specific weapons, then no way in hell I’m touching this ■■■■, lmao!

I’ll take diversity over artificial difficulty any day, thank you. This is technically a RPG that allows you to build your character the way you want and use the weapons you want, so diversy should take precedence over artificial difficulty that people will always find a way to overcome it, like you mentioned in your OP.

I’m so tired of games that gives you freedom to play as you want, but then throw crap like this, forcing you to change your playstyle, so that you can enjoy higher difficulty content… Artificial difficulty as a CANCER to any game!

10 Likes

I think the notion that the purpose of Mayhem modes is strictly to make the game more difficult is mistaken as I see it. I think the idea was to make the game more chaotic and unpredictable, hence the name. Granted, the fact that people can reset the modifiers until they get something they want kinda defeats that purpose as well, but yeah, I don’t think straight difficulty increase is what they had in mind with Mayhem.

EDIT: PS. Sorry, I pressed reply on the wrong post. I meant to reply the OP.

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Every difficulty modifier in every game is “artificial difficulty”, mainly because folks never seem to define what they mean by “artificial”. It seems to be a fancy way of saying “difficulty I don’t like”.

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Artificial as in it pretend to make the game more difficult, but it can easily be overcomed by using the “right gear”, like the OP mentioned, instead of having enemies have different attack patterns, better AI, stuff like that…

Changing damage numbers and saying you made the game more difficulty is artificial difficulty, which is one of the reasons I dislike the idea of multiple playthroughs.

5 Likes

let me clarify then, if enemy has bullet reflection there is nothing you can do about it, that is artificial difficulty. since you hold stronger guns than enemies, you will mostly die from yourself rather than enemies.

a proper difficulty rise is making enemies faster smarter and more durable.

making you swap out your smg for pistol because you rolled -50% dmg on pistols and +50 on smg’s is artificial.

spawning more enemies and generally more badass and special enemies is proper difficulty rise, since it tests your ability to deal with larger group of attacks.

spawning enemies with hitscan rocket launchers is artificial since you can not do anything about it.

etc etc

11 Likes

I’m kinda in the middle on it, but I play on m3 for the drops obviously. I think it would’ve been better if we could choose the modifiers and got more/less exp and quality loot drops based on which ones we picked.

strongly disagree - I really like that there is some kind of challenge.

9 Likes

Keep mayhem mode and add UVHM. Best of both worlds. Im one that loved bl2 uvhm. It was a shock my first time, especially because i went at 55 with 50 weapons. Once i got used to it i loved it. Good difficulty but not to hard.

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Making mobs faster would not increase difficulty unless the player have “old man reactions”. And having them move like The Flash would not only look silly but it would look like a ■■■■■■ game.

Smarter? Highly doubt they would even think about improving the AI of every single mob in the game just for the sake of minor extra difficulty (no one farms regular mobs; you can but there are only few places with a lot of badasses+anoited together). But if we were talking about bosses, then I’d agree. New and harder mechanics would be cool to have.

More durable? I don’t see how one can do this other than boosting their life, shields, armor and/or resistances. Other than the resistances, we have that already. Is it enough? Personal opinion.

C’mon man, bullet reflection…really? Let’s be honest here. Is it that hard to shoot and move? If it’s something you CAN’T avoid, like you said about the rockets, then I’m totally with you. But reflect? Eh…

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You can not avoid hitscan and boosting health and shields and armour is not same as resistencies. Let’s say u fight traunt and your roll is -50%. On radiation and shock . Can you kill him? Yes. Is it fun? No. Besides I did not think they would make better a.i it is a matter of should not what they can. I have stated it many times that they won’t make better a.i. also do not take it as if I think mayhem 3 is hard it is anti gun is all. Back to my example u Can kill said traunt with kinetic dmg but he’ll what if I don like or have damn kinetic in my arsenal? I just go and save and quit for better modifier roll. While flat stat increase on mobs and spawn increase is rather fair way to challenge your stupidly strong build and guns without forcing you to swap them out.

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Exactly what rly made uvhm shine was trash mobs 4x HP

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Before I say anything I want to clarify that I do respect everyone’s opinion on this and the following should be taken as nothing more than my opinion:

Personally, what I am hearing a lot of is conflicting desires. Essentially, you all are saying that Mayhem mode is forcing you to use different weapons to deal with the modifiers and situations: I.E.: strategy

Then you ask that instead, it gives you enemies with more health and better AI, which would mean you would have to play more strategically.

The problem with this is that you are essentially asking them to give you what they are already trying to give you, simply because you don’t like giving up using the uber-power-rocket of death.

Personally, I think a mode that forces you to consider different items and weapons, as well as tactics, is not only fun but will give the game a longer lifespan than just smarter enemies.

I do agree that smarter enemies would be a welcome improvement, but as it is that is not enough of a reason, for me, that mayhem mode should be removed.

That being said, if there are specific modifiers causing a problem, it should certainly be looked into if it is causing situations that are too unfair. I haven’t come across bullet reflection yet myself, but I could see where it would be a problem with already high enemy health and shields.

12 Likes