@davidsgarbageacc
We were talking about her barrier
Please follow this argument which started with this:
David: “Once I hit 4 she keeps everyone healthy and still saves lives better than miko.”
I respond to this by saying the following:
bborn: “However, Miko is much more capable of keeping its team alive over Reyna due to Miko’s high potency and lack of limitations. What I mentioned in my previous post about the significant limitation of Priority Target, also applies to Shield Booster, but it is much more of a problem for Shield Booster (aside from having a higher cooldown). Reyna’s Shield Booster is essential for keeping Reyna’s allies healed as she cannot heal without it. So if she uses it to support the team (or use it for failsafe benefits), then she won’t be able to use it while its on cooldown when she needs to use it immediately to rescue someone else. If she saves the use of Shield Booster for that moment though, then more allies will be in need of healing, and thus Reyna would be failing to keep her allies alive which significantly lowers her usefulness as a support character. Both forms of uses lead to such limitations being exploited (which is good design as it balances the character).”
In short, I explain the problem with Reyna’s Shield Booster, and why she can’t be both consistently healing and consistently saving lives, which is a significant limitation in her ability to support. Further down the same post, I say this:
bborn: “As explained and thoroughly compared with in the previous post, Miko’s utility is significantly higher than the other support characters, and it is significantly more difficult to counter Miko’s support as a result (which is the problem that would need to be argued against).”
Here I said that Miko has more utility because its support is harder to counter unlike Reyna, which was explained previously. One of the biggest limitations being mentioned earlier in the post (which I already referenced here in this post for you) was this (the short version): Reyna’s ability to save an ally (with Shield Booster) and heal her allies is tied to the same ability with a cooldown. Then you respond with the following;
David: “Reyna has 3 different skills to save with, and although they may not have a stun, they are good enough to do what you need them to 99% of the time. Enemy in the backline? You can either snare them or push them back with your ult. Further, the range on her CC allows her to do things that Miko could never do.”
In response to the fact that Reyna’s Shield Booster was limited in both saving allies and healing, you mentioned that Reyna has 3 different skills to save with. Then you proceed to support that idea within that post. Since this point was flawed, I responded with this:
bborn: “When trying to save an ally running away from the enemy, using your snare isn’t helping them when the ally is being shot from a ranged weapon. Shield Booster is what saves them. In the same situation, pushing back the enemy with the Ult isn’t stopping an El Dragon from splashing in afterwards and clotheslining through or a Caldarius from bursting through, or a Phoebe from teleporting through, etc. Shield Booster would have saved her ally though”
Then you proceed to make clarifications for the flawed point with this:
David: “I’m not saying you use every skill for everything, but there is a lot of overlap there where I can use several skills to solve a situation, though in different ways. Generally I would be using the push on the ult to push back a melee. This is usually all it takes to give your team mate the window to make their escape”
I proceed to explain why your flawed point is still flawed with the following:
bborn: “As already explained in the previous post, this just isn’t the case. When characters like El Dragon, Phoebe, etc. can just burst right through, the ult will do nothing to save them, and the snare isn’t saving them from projectiles. I question the types of teams you are fighting when such methods are effective.”
You still make an attempt to justify the point with the following:
David: “So what if Phoebe or el dragon jump through Reyna’s barrier. Reyna would obviously be watching for that and not doing it when that is likely to be done.”
Here is when a new problem has arisen. At first, your argument just had a logical flaw. But then you made a new argument where the problem was the argument itself (the argument was irrelevant). The argument is irrelevant because the argument previously being made was the following: if an option (the ult saving allies) could work (which it couldn’t in this case due to the large amount of viable counters) in place of another option (the ability to save allies). Reyna’s decision to use an option or not (which wouldn’t work in the first place) is irrelevant towards said argument.
Since you were starting to stray away from the point being argued, I decided to explain what the argument was to help you refocus your argument. I do this by posting the following:
bborn: “Your response to how she deals with not having Shield Booster to support her allies was flawed. I pointed out the flaws in said argument. So in this situation, if Reyna is to be “watching for that and not doing it when that is likely to be done” then she is not saving her teammate, and the teammate dies.”
Instead of directly pointing out the irrelevance of your last argument that was redirecting it, I decided to just explain why the argument was wrong in said context. This way, we could just get back on track and continue the argument.
Now onto the next point:
and I’m saying this is a specific issue against maybe like 4 characters.
These are most of the options (assuming that I am missing some) that characters can do to counter the barrier’s use in saving the ally, assuming that the barrier’s placement would also block a direct line of fire from projectiles (which alot of times isn’t even the case).
- Alani can use any of her 3 skills.
- Attikus can Pounce.
- Benedict can fly over and shoot downwards. He could also just Ult.
- Boulder can Boulderdash and axe throw once through.
- Caldarius can Burst or use Aerial Assault.
- Deande can use Holotwin with the dash and speed boost.
- El Dragon can splash or clothesline.
- Isic can plasma dash.
- Kelvin can sublimate or Ult
- Kleese can Ult.
- Melka can Claw Lunge over and Spike or just attack once over.
- Montana can Lumberjack dash over.
- Orendi can Nullify through and attack or just pillar or Ult (with lvl 10 mutation)
- Oscar Mike can Ult.
- Phoebe can teleport.
- Rath can catalytic smash
- Shayne can use any of the skills for fleet footed. She can also Ult.
Who is on this this perfect team of yours? (No really, im curious).
Having a “perfect team” is irrelevant to the argument at hand. I will not diverge this argument again.
My point with kelvin is that there are counters to all strategys. It doesn’t even just have to be kelvin, it could be almost any character with a stun. U stun miko or the tank and miko is gonna be forced to take the attack or leave his healing target. Or u can throw an AOE between miko and his healing target. Or a hook on miko or the tank. The possibilities are endless.
I know that there are counters to everything. I am not saying that there isn’t any counters. This does not address any relevant argument at all, and I have already explained that. Me saying that there are counters to Kelvin (which there are) is also irrelevant to the argument, so I will not continue arguing this point.
This was obviously a typo. You keep ignoring his weaknesses and then trying to act like he has none. I just told you them. They are quite easily exploitable. A simple stun is destroying your whole game plan (something reyna can actually solve). You seem to be able to imagine all these extremely situational faults in other supports game plans but you seem blind to how miko having to stand right in the thick of battle could ever go wrong for him. There are so many counters I don’t even know where to start. Just open your eyes and think about how you could stop it, it’s not that hard.
I have addressed every single argument that you presented in regards to Miko’s weaknesses. The problem as has been reiterated several times, is that the weaknesses aren’t significant enough to exploit them to the degree that you can exploit the weaknesses of every other support character. Nowhere am I saying that Miko has no weaknesses (clearly it does and I have already acknowledged this).
If you think just having a stun “destroys the whole gameplan” of Miko’s team then you are quite wrong. Even if you were right, that same strategy that could be used to defeat Miko would be more effectively used against other teams with supports that don’t have a Miko (due to how Miko defends itself and supports the team).
Also as mentioned many times before, I can already beat Miko (which is completely irrelevant). I have beaten Miko plenty of times (even without having a Miko on my team). I have even beaten a strong team composition that had a Miko, Galilea, and Alani, without having any support characters on my team.
You telling me to “open my eyes and think about it” isn’t addressing your argument at all. Stop trying to divert the argument. You will either provide support for your argument (to which I will argue against), or not.
Seiously though, what is your ideal miko team? With Reyna, I’m probably going to have like a Kelvin, a Ghalt, a OM, and maybe a Montana or Isic. Characters that all have pretty good survivability themselves and are able to keep the minion line clear in the early game, while still having the power to drop sentry late game. The kelvin-Ghalt combo is also going to really mess with your Miko’s game plan. Reyna on the other hand, would have an easier time dealing with this because of her range and CC removal. Isn’t theory fighter fun!!!
This same team comp with Miko (instead of Reyna) would be much more effective, due to the ability to outsupport Reyna which I have supported well in all of my past posts. I agree that debating is very fun.
