#130

finally she’s been addressed!

#131

Here, take your like. Just take it.

#132

I know that feeling. I played a game last night where we were getting beat, they were constantly pushing us and they took out our first Sentry. They were all up in our base, in the supply station room, all of that. Two of our teammates kept calling for surrender (like 4 times) and I thought about it but I decided that we weren’t getting totally spanked and I was still having fun so I voted against. Somehow in the last five minutes we pushed back. I’m still not exactly sure how we did it but we killed like 4 of them, pushed the minions through, took out their first sentry. Then it just became a defense game since we were up on kills. Luckily they didn’t have an Oscar Mike because their Phoebe and Melka tried to bumrush our second sentry at the end but they could’t break his shields and we were there to try and stop them. If they’d had an OM they would have “won”.

#133

@davidsgarbageacc

But now that I think about it, in an organized team, I could simply have the rest of my team allow me to pick up more of the shards in the first run, which would expedite me getting my legendary even faster. The other team would be a at a slight gold advantage, but that’s not that hard to deal with.

Also in an organized team, I could have my team play defensively for the first couple of minion waves and camp the sentry. During this time, Reyna can recall between minion waves and grab some gold on the way back. One recall on overgrowth will take about 30 seconds and net Reyna around 600 gold. This should get her just about enough to buy her legendary, and this can all happen before the 2 minute mark. There is little risk in doing this too, since characters are too weak to rush sentry, and there are no shepards or thralls yet.

Once Reyna has her heal, her team can start pushing out.

You are underestimating the advantages of having shards. Having 1,800 not being used to just able to try and match Miko’s healing, and having the other team obtaining the big middle shards is a very significant disadvantage. As mentioned previously 1,700 shards is 2 whole levels, and that is without using buildable gear.

Not to mention that due to the lack of support and lack of shards, Reyna and her team will be underleveled in comparison to the other team (I have explained this more thoroughly in my previous post). Getting the ability to heal with the legendary still doesn’t allow Reyna to heal as well as Miko either, so counter pushing in such a position will still be more difficult (giving Miko’s team an advantage for a longer period of time).

Reyna won’t have the level 4 healing boost nor can she heal herself until level 3. Healing with the plasma pulse isn’t anywhere near as efficient as Miko’s healing beam (especially from afar). The Plasma Pulse does not track nor does it travel at bullet speed. Trying to consistently shoot allies who are jumping around trying to avoid the enemy is not easy, nor is it as reliable as Miko’s auto track healing beam. The healing can only happen when the overshield is on, which won’t last very long when the enemies are attacking that ally.

All I’m saying is that Reyna doesn’t really have to put herself in the position where she is a great target on offense or defense, so she doesn’t have her Shield shot off all that often.

Whether she is a great target or not, Shield Booster will always suffer from the limitation I mentioned earlier:

“What I mentioned in my previous post about the significant limitation of Priority Target, also applies to Shield Booster, but it is much more of a problem for Shield Booster (aside from having a higher cooldown). Reyna’s Shield Booster is essential for keeping Reyna’s allies healed as she cannot heal without it. So if she uses it to support the team (or use it for failsafe benefits), then she won’t be able to use it while its on cooldown when she needs to use it immediately to rescue someone else. If she saves the use of Shield Booster for that moment though, then more allies will be in need of healing, and thus Reyna would be failing to keep her allies alive which significantly lowers her usefulness as a support character. Both forms of uses lead to such limitations being exploited (which is good design as it balances the character).”

Ok, but you realize if Reyna is all the way down to 10-20% heath, miko would already be dead. For Reyna to even get that low, they would have already had to have shoot of her Shield & her overshield. The point is, her health rarely even drops that low because she is constantly healing herself, she has a shield up, and she can stay back.

This is not accurate. There are many ways for Reyna to get her health down to 10-20% where Miko would be in a similar situation (in terms of remaining health). Reyna could be hit by attacks that do bonus shield damage. Reyna could also be attacked when her overshield is down. If you add Reyna’s shield to her health it is only 90 points more than Miko at equal level. Miko could be a level higher due to not having to waste time collecting shards (every level grants 75 health). Miko could have Health gear that increases its HP by almost 500 (I have a rare health gear that lowers shield regen but increases health by an additional 210, granting 490 extra health at the cost of 630 shards).

Against a team that is good enough to kill Miko, Reyna will more often (than Miko) come into these situations, or just die due to not being able to defend as well as Miko can (Miko has spores, speed, faster healing itself).

I’m not saying you use every skill for everything, but there is a lot of overlap there where I can use several skills to solve a situation, though in different ways. Generally I would be using the push on the ult to push back a melee. This is usually all it takes to give your team mate the window to make their escape.

As already explained in the previous post, this just isn’t the case. When characters like El Dragon, Phoebe, etc. can just burst right through, the ult will do nothing to save them, and the snare isn’t saving them from projectiles. I question the types of teams you are fighting when such methods are effective.

Reyna doesn’t really need to be running up to use her Ult that often, her Shield Booster is usually all she needs. It’s much easier to aim her Shield booster than mikos healing beam, even at a distance. Her guns are also pretty much pinpoint accurate.

Yes, her shield Booster is what she needs to rescue allies, but as mentioned earlier it has limitations. You claimed that you counter said limitations with her other skills such as her ult. My argument was in response to that.

As for her guns being accurate. Reyna isn’t a sniper. When shooting a weapon without aiming in, the further you shoot from the effective distance the more inaccurate it will be (especially on PS4). Furthermore her damage is cut by 50% after a certain distance. Reyna’s aren’t fighting at the distance Marquis is. Reyna fights at a much more accessible distance.

Hiding behind your opponent is only somewhat viable with a small handful of large characters. And even then, it would take some incredible coordination to have the 2 of you rotate around to keep miko hidden. And the whole plan goes out the window when a second enemy shows up. Reyna on the other hand, gets to stand 15 feet back and support from there. Yeah, you could shoot her, but she likely has an overshield on and there is a guy right in front of you that you are now ignoring. Reyna is definitely in a safer position. I often don’t die at all with Reyna in a match.

It doesn’t matter if its only viable with a few characters. There’s going to be a tank (a character who’s going to take alot of hits) on the Miko’s team who can do that (specifically at a competitive level). It also is quite easy for the Miko to hide behind one character. The whole plan actually doesn’t go out the window when a second enemy shows up either. There are stationary objects that Miko could hind behind, and minions (such as the thrall and super minion). Furthermore, once an enemy actually gets in, they have to deal with Miko’s spores.

Reyna on the other hand, isn’t hiding behind stuff since she is going to be shooting the enemy. If she is shooting the enemy she is in the enemies’ line of sight and thus easier to target. Characters such as Ghalt and Shayne can pull Reyna in such positions, and force her into a bad one. Other characters who have strong far range ults can target her and hit her while an assassin appears quickly to finish her off. Snipers can target her and do high damage forcing her to back out. These are situations that are easier for Miko to avoid.

1 Like
#134

Man, the assumptions you make for miko are so rediculous. In your examples, Miko and his team are completely godlike, Reyna and her team are complete idiots. You think miko is going to be able to hide behind his tank or cover all day while he is healing, but Reyna can’t even hit her plasma pulse shots? And she’s getting pulled in and threatened from 20 yards back but Miko has no issues being right in the thick of battle?

So what if Phoebe or el dragon jump through Reyna’s barrier. Reyna would obviously be watching for that and not doing it when that is likely to be done. What if Reyna’s team had a kelvin or something? There goes your whole hide behind the tank idea. There’s counters to everything.

These arguments are getting rediculous and are completely unbiased. I’ve explained to you Miko’s weaknesses. He lacks damage(he can’t heal and attack at same time), has a large Crit spot, and his heal beam range forces him to get within striking distance. If you refuse to see how a good team could possibly exploit this, then I just don’t know what to say.

I’m just going to continue using all of the supports and embracing their strengths and weaknesses. I have no fear of Miko teams and I will continue to beat them all the time with other supports.

#135

@davidsgarbageacc

Man, the assumptions you make for miko are so rediculous. In your examples, Miko and his team are completely godlike, Reyna and her team are complete idiots. You think miko is going to be able to hide behind his tank or cover all day while he is healing, but Reyna can’t even hit her plasma pulse shots? And she’s getting pulled in and threatened from 20 yards back but Miko has no issues being right in the thick of battle?

I suggest that you reread what I have written. Nowhere did I say that Reyna can’t hit with plasma pulse. Due to the way that plasma pulse functions, it is less accurate than Miko’s beam. That is a fact.

Yes, targeting support characters that expose themselves in the line of fire is a common strategy, and is what is going to happen when Reyna tries to fight. Miko will stay out of the opponents line of fire as best the Miko player can (while healing), while Reyna can’t if she’s trying to shoot people. Nowhere am I implying that the Miko player (and its team) is better than the Reyna player (and her team). I am just using simple logic, and using arguments based on actual common strategies.

So what if Phoebe or el dragon jump through Reyna’s barrier. Reyna would obviously be watching for that and not doing it when that is likely to be done. What if Reyna’s team had a kelvin or something? There goes your whole hide behind the tank idea. There’s counters to everything.

Your response to how she deals with not having Shield Booster to support her allies was flawed. I pointed out the flaws in said argument. So in this situation, if Reyna is to be “watching for that and not doing it when that is likely to be done” then she is not saving her teammate, and the teammate dies. Kelvin being in her team isn’t part of the argument of Reyna being able to heal and save allies better (thus support the team better than Miko). Directly being able to counter Reyna’s ability to support her allies with a normal functional team is.

These arguments are getting rediculous and are completely unbiased. I’ve explained to you Miko’s weaknesses. He lacks damage(he can’t heal and attack at same time), has a large Crit spot, and his heal beam range forces him to get within striking distance. If you refuse to see how a good team could possibly exploit this, then I just don’t know what to say.

It is good to see that you also understand that my arguments are completely unbiased, though we already have went over this part of the argument as well. Miko doesn’t have significant exploitable weaknesses, especially in comparison to the other healers. Hence, there is definitely a problem when one of the best strategies (if not the best way) to deal with Miko, is to have another Miko on your team.

I’m just going to continue using all of the supports and embracing their strengths and weaknesses. I have no fear of Miko teams and I will continue to beat them all the time with other supports.

Good luck.

#136

You are my personal hero of the day! :heart:

1 Like
#137

We were talking about her barrier and I’m saying this is a specific issue against maybe like 4 characters. It has to be a fast,damaging, non projectile move to get through the barrier. Why Reyna was even throwin her barrier up before the Phoebe or El Dragon rushed in I don’t understand. If they werect already attacking, why do I need to push anyone out? You got 2 threatening melees on your team? Who is on this this perfect team of yours? (No really, im curious).

My point with kelvin is that there are counters to all strategys. It doesn’t even just have to be kelvin, it could be almost any character with a stun. U stun miko or the tank and miko is gonna be forced to take the attack or leave his healing target. Or u can throw an AOE between miko and his healing target. Or a hook on miko or the tank. The possibilities are endless.

This was obviously a typo. You keep ignoring his weaknesses and then trying to act like he has none. I just told you them. They are quite easily exploitable. A simple stun is destroying your whole game plan (something reyna can actually solve). You seem to be able to imagine all these extremely situational faults in other supports game plans but you seem blind to how miko having to stand right in the thick of battle could ever go wrong for him. There are so many counters I don’t even know where to start. Just open your eyes and think about how you could stop it, it’s not that hard.

Seiously though, what is your ideal miko team? With Reyna, I’m probably going to have like a Kelvin, a Ghalt, a OM, and maybe a Montana or Isic. Characters that all have pretty good survivability themselves and are able to keep the minion line clear in the early game, while still having the power to drop sentry late game. The kelvin-Ghalt combo is also going to really mess with your Miko’s game plan. Miko has no way to stop kelvins subliminate and he has no way to heal the hooked target when they pull them out of heal beam range. Reyna on the other hand, would have an easier time dealing with this because of her range and CC removal. Isn’t theory fighter fun!!!

#138

i sent the dev a message telling him i expected more from a dev than bringing in that kind of comp, but got no reply. it was all in good fun.

not trying to sound arrogant or anything like that, but we still won because we were three times as good as them. that is what is sad about certain characters and compositions in this game. you have to be twice as good as them to beat them, and that is not the way it should be. people constantly use the example that they beat something so it must be fine. if that were the case, then prenerf phoebe was fine, pre nerf gali was fine, pre nerf ambra was fine, and pre nerf el dragon was fine. they were all fine by that logic because guess what? i shut them all down more than they shut me down and i have plenty of stats to prove it. that logic is meaningless

#139

@davidsgarbageacc

We were talking about her barrier

Please follow this argument which started with this:

David: “Once I hit 4 she keeps everyone healthy and still saves lives better than miko.”

I respond to this by saying the following:

bborn: “However, Miko is much more capable of keeping its team alive over Reyna due to Miko’s high potency and lack of limitations. What I mentioned in my previous post about the significant limitation of Priority Target, also applies to Shield Booster, but it is much more of a problem for Shield Booster (aside from having a higher cooldown). Reyna’s Shield Booster is essential for keeping Reyna’s allies healed as she cannot heal without it. So if she uses it to support the team (or use it for failsafe benefits), then she won’t be able to use it while its on cooldown when she needs to use it immediately to rescue someone else. If she saves the use of Shield Booster for that moment though, then more allies will be in need of healing, and thus Reyna would be failing to keep her allies alive which significantly lowers her usefulness as a support character. Both forms of uses lead to such limitations being exploited (which is good design as it balances the character).”

In short, I explain the problem with Reyna’s Shield Booster, and why she can’t be both consistently healing and consistently saving lives, which is a significant limitation in her ability to support. Further down the same post, I say this:

bborn: “As explained and thoroughly compared with in the previous post, Miko’s utility is significantly higher than the other support characters, and it is significantly more difficult to counter Miko’s support as a result (which is the problem that would need to be argued against).”

Here I said that Miko has more utility because its support is harder to counter unlike Reyna, which was explained previously. One of the biggest limitations being mentioned earlier in the post (which I already referenced here in this post for you) was this (the short version): Reyna’s ability to save an ally (with Shield Booster) and heal her allies is tied to the same ability with a cooldown. Then you respond with the following;

David: “Reyna has 3 different skills to save with, and although they may not have a stun, they are good enough to do what you need them to 99% of the time. Enemy in the backline? You can either snare them or push them back with your ult. Further, the range on her CC allows her to do things that Miko could never do.”

In response to the fact that Reyna’s Shield Booster was limited in both saving allies and healing, you mentioned that Reyna has 3 different skills to save with. Then you proceed to support that idea within that post. Since this point was flawed, I responded with this:

bborn: “When trying to save an ally running away from the enemy, using your snare isn’t helping them when the ally is being shot from a ranged weapon. Shield Booster is what saves them. In the same situation, pushing back the enemy with the Ult isn’t stopping an El Dragon from splashing in afterwards and clotheslining through or a Caldarius from bursting through, or a Phoebe from teleporting through, etc. Shield Booster would have saved her ally though”

Then you proceed to make clarifications for the flawed point with this:

David: “I’m not saying you use every skill for everything, but there is a lot of overlap there where I can use several skills to solve a situation, though in different ways. Generally I would be using the push on the ult to push back a melee. This is usually all it takes to give your team mate the window to make their escape”

I proceed to explain why your flawed point is still flawed with the following:

bborn: “As already explained in the previous post, this just isn’t the case. When characters like El Dragon, Phoebe, etc. can just burst right through, the ult will do nothing to save them, and the snare isn’t saving them from projectiles. I question the types of teams you are fighting when such methods are effective.”

You still make an attempt to justify the point with the following:

David: “So what if Phoebe or el dragon jump through Reyna’s barrier. Reyna would obviously be watching for that and not doing it when that is likely to be done.”

Here is when a new problem has arisen. At first, your argument just had a logical flaw. But then you made a new argument where the problem was the argument itself (the argument was irrelevant). The argument is irrelevant because the argument previously being made was the following: if an option (the ult saving allies) could work (which it couldn’t in this case due to the large amount of viable counters) in place of another option (the ability to save allies). Reyna’s decision to use an option or not (which wouldn’t work in the first place) is irrelevant towards said argument.

Since you were starting to stray away from the point being argued, I decided to explain what the argument was to help you refocus your argument. I do this by posting the following:

bborn: “Your response to how she deals with not having Shield Booster to support her allies was flawed. I pointed out the flaws in said argument. So in this situation, if Reyna is to be “watching for that and not doing it when that is likely to be done” then she is not saving her teammate, and the teammate dies.”

Instead of directly pointing out the irrelevance of your last argument that was redirecting it, I decided to just explain why the argument was wrong in said context. This way, we could just get back on track and continue the argument.

Now onto the next point:

and I’m saying this is a specific issue against maybe like 4 characters.

These are most of the options (assuming that I am missing some) that characters can do to counter the barrier’s use in saving the ally, assuming that the barrier’s placement would also block a direct line of fire from projectiles (which alot of times isn’t even the case).

  1. Alani can use any of her 3 skills.
  2. Attikus can Pounce.
  3. Benedict can fly over and shoot downwards. He could also just Ult.
  4. Boulder can Boulderdash and axe throw once through.
  5. Caldarius can Burst or use Aerial Assault.
  6. Deande can use Holotwin with the dash and speed boost.
  7. El Dragon can splash or clothesline.
  8. Isic can plasma dash.
  9. Kelvin can sublimate or Ult
  10. Kleese can Ult.
  11. Melka can Claw Lunge over and Spike or just attack once over.
  12. Montana can Lumberjack dash over.
  13. Orendi can Nullify through and attack or just pillar or Ult (with lvl 10 mutation)
  14. Oscar Mike can Ult.
  15. Phoebe can teleport.
  16. Rath can catalytic smash
  17. Shayne can use any of the skills for fleet footed. She can also Ult.

Who is on this this perfect team of yours? (No really, im curious).

Having a “perfect team” is irrelevant to the argument at hand. I will not diverge this argument again.

My point with kelvin is that there are counters to all strategys. It doesn’t even just have to be kelvin, it could be almost any character with a stun. U stun miko or the tank and miko is gonna be forced to take the attack or leave his healing target. Or u can throw an AOE between miko and his healing target. Or a hook on miko or the tank. The possibilities are endless.

I know that there are counters to everything. I am not saying that there isn’t any counters. This does not address any relevant argument at all, and I have already explained that. Me saying that there are counters to Kelvin (which there are) is also irrelevant to the argument, so I will not continue arguing this point.

This was obviously a typo. You keep ignoring his weaknesses and then trying to act like he has none. I just told you them. They are quite easily exploitable. A simple stun is destroying your whole game plan (something reyna can actually solve). You seem to be able to imagine all these extremely situational faults in other supports game plans but you seem blind to how miko having to stand right in the thick of battle could ever go wrong for him. There are so many counters I don’t even know where to start. Just open your eyes and think about how you could stop it, it’s not that hard.

I have addressed every single argument that you presented in regards to Miko’s weaknesses. The problem as has been reiterated several times, is that the weaknesses aren’t significant enough to exploit them to the degree that you can exploit the weaknesses of every other support character. Nowhere am I saying that Miko has no weaknesses (clearly it does and I have already acknowledged this).

If you think just having a stun “destroys the whole gameplan” of Miko’s team then you are quite wrong. Even if you were right, that same strategy that could be used to defeat Miko would be more effectively used against other teams with supports that don’t have a Miko (due to how Miko defends itself and supports the team).

Also as mentioned many times before, I can already beat Miko (which is completely irrelevant). I have beaten Miko plenty of times (even without having a Miko on my team). I have even beaten a strong team composition that had a Miko, Galilea, and Alani, without having any support characters on my team.

You telling me to “open my eyes and think about it” isn’t addressing your argument at all. Stop trying to divert the argument. You will either provide support for your argument (to which I will argue against), or not.

Seiously though, what is your ideal miko team? With Reyna, I’m probably going to have like a Kelvin, a Ghalt, a OM, and maybe a Montana or Isic. Characters that all have pretty good survivability themselves and are able to keep the minion line clear in the early game, while still having the power to drop sentry late game. The kelvin-Ghalt combo is also going to really mess with your Miko’s game plan. Reyna on the other hand, would have an easier time dealing with this because of her range and CC removal. Isn’t theory fighter fun!!!

This same team comp with Miko (instead of Reyna) would be much more effective, due to the ability to outsupport Reyna which I have supported well in all of my past posts. I agree that debating is very fun.

#140

@bborn

Ok, but your logic is just wrong then. I thought u meant my team mate was getting pursued by someone else and then el dragon jumped in after Reyna’s barrier. If el dragon is chasing someone and I throw up a Barrier over them, it is going to push that el dragon back. By the time he recovers from that, my team mate (who will continue to flee) is going to have gained a good 10 feet on him. If el dragon want to keep pursuing at that point then fine, my team will just pounce on him, as he is almost certainly overextended now (and out of range of mikos healing).

Or are you saying someone on my team is getting shot at while fleeing, Reyna throws up her barrier to shield the fleeing ally from bullets, then El Dragon jumps in afterward? In this situation, Miko isnt going to fare much better. Miko is going to try to heal the fleeing ally, then El Dragon is going to clothsline in and knockup miko AND possibly the fleeing tarrget (cutting off healing), and then you both are going to continue to get shot at by the rest of the team. At least Reyna is cutting off the fire from the rest of the team with her barrier.

And pretty much everything else you just listed is either:
A) not going to secure a kill (kleese slow ass telegraphed ult wtf?)
b) work just as well against miko (attikus pounces right at miko, deande holotwining to backline, boldur bolderdashes tank into miko since miko is standing behind him, etc).

Is it irrelevant though? This is a team game and team composition means a lot. You are trying to make a blanket statement that Miko is the absolute best support, regardless of team composition. I’m arguing that all supports have their strengths and weaknesses. Team composition is going to have a lot to do with how effectIive each support performs with her allies and against her enemies. A smartly planned team composition can minimize a supports weaknesses while also exposing some of the other supports flaws.

I won’t deny that Miko(or maybe Ambra) is probably the best support to just throw into a random pug with no coordination or strategy, but when you start getting into organized strategies, the other supports have some clear advantages over miko(and vice versa).

But you are just completely ignoring his flaws and then acting like he has none. You seriously think no one is going to be able to punish miko for standing in the thick of battle. And you deny that his large Crit spot and lack of shield is ever going to be an issue when he has to stand just a few feet away to be in range of his healing beam. This is why I’m telling you to open your eyes. You can see a million ways to counter any other support no matter how unlikely the scenario is, but you have blinders on when it comes to countering Miko.

I see how all of the supports can be countered. I’m not saying Miko is a bad character or that he has no way to get around certain situations, but I recognize the problem areas that miko has. You seem to be unable to recognize these flaws and how they can be exploited for whatever reason.

No, that team composition is not going to work better with Miko in a head to head. Reyna actually has the ability to counter that strategy with her Shield booster, whIle miko does not. Miko is better at sustained healing, while reyna is better at dealing with burst damage (which this is). Reyna is also unlikely to get subliminated in this situation as she will be standing back further than miko.

The ideal Reyna team is going to have one strong Frontline tank to harass the enemy front lines. In the back, you are going to have a couple characters with some good CC to keep the back lines clear, and someone with strong lane clear. By doing this, you are minimizing the risk of the backline characters. Melees will have to slip past my front line, only to encounter a bunch of CC. Incoming fire can be avoided by backline by getting behind cover or Reyna’s barrier. Another benefit of this type of formation is that it will shift most of the focus towards the one frontline character, which Reyna will almost constantly be shield boosting.

I don’t believe this same setup would work as well for miko. Miko would be forced to move up with his tank to heal him, leaving him exposed. If you went the melee tank route, I believe miko would want a second character, possibly another melee, that can move up with miko and protect him from any attempted ganks.
One thing I will give you, is that Miko can get away with a greater variety of formation types. That’s what happens when you have a character that is just super focused on one thing. If you want to say that makes Miko better than other supports, then ok. But with the right team formation, the other supports can perform just as well as miko.

#142

Nope. After last night I entirely change my mind. Miko is just as bad as Alani in my opinion. Had a Miko Montana combo at one point… My friend and I aren’t bad at this game by any means, and we did get to kill them (it takes four, with Miko healing Montana. 4 people attacking). Granted, you can’t get close - knockback stun, melt. So you can’t get to Miko half the time and he just heals!
Then there was Rath in a different match. He was a quick melee from death. Miko heals him. Less than one second later, with three of us attacking him (I was Rath that time) he went up in health, not down.

You say Miko is a trade off between damage and healing. But you’re forgetting he’s one of two characters where nobody has to stop attacking at all (except him) with him there. He just continuously heals so people like Montana can get overheat hurts them and just sit there melting people.

In every other moba, you can’t just stand behind your tank and be unhittable. So don’t use Morales (HotS) or whoever LoL has as a sustained healer as an example.

#143

@davidsgarbageacc

Ok, but your logic is just wrong then. I thought u meant my team mate was getting pursued by someone else and then el dragon jumped in after Reyna’s barrier. If el dragon is chasing someone and I throw up a Barrier over them, it is going to push that el dragon back. By the time he recovers from that, my team mate (who will continue to flee) is going to have gained a good 10 feet on him. If el dragon want to keep pursuing at that point then fine, my team will just pounce on him, as he is almost certainly overextended now (and out of range of mikos healing).

I have met with this situation quite a few times already. Reyna, doesn’t have Shield Booster because she just used it on someone else (sometimes she just decides to use ult even if she may have had Shield Booster for whatever reason), and will throw her ult in an attempt to save an ally. Reyna may not only die because of it, but the teammate usually dies as well. The pushback of the ult isn’t very large, nor does it take much time at all to recover from. When such a situation happens, usually a teammate (even the same one pushed back from Reyna’s Ult) would either use a burst option (which kills the enemy trying to escape) or throw a skill past the barrier (which kills the enemy trying to escape). Sometimes such skills are already being thrown (such as Kleese’s Ult or Orendi’s Pillar or Alani’s Ult or Shayne’s Ult, etc.) before or as the enemy even starts trying to get away (they could see Reyna coming and prepare to hit them both).

There are also multiple situations in which bursting in to get a kill is worth doing. For example: characters like Kelvin or El Dragon could burst in getting the kill and do some damage to someone else (or multiple enemies) before dieing. If Kelvin kills that enemy trying to escape (with a possible bonus of damaging someone else) and the team kills Reyna, then Kelvin’s (or whoever’s) sacrifice could prove to be valuable. Maybe the person who overextended to get that kill was about to die, and sacrificed himself to kill a key character of the opponent’s team (maybe that character was a much higher level than everyone else). Then there are times when the character could burst in for the kill and burst out such as Caldarius or El Dragon. Then there are times when the team rushes in together and could support the character who bursted in for the kill (making the match a 5 against 4, though if Reyna also dies it becomes 5 against 3).

Again, I question the teams that you are fighting when you have not experienced this (unless you have experienced this and you are just choosing to waste my time with said arguments).

Or are you saying someone on my team is getting shot at while fleeing, Reyna throws up her barrier to shield the fleeing ally from bullets, then El Dragon jumps in afterward? In this situation, Miko isnt going to fare much better. Miko is going to try to heal the fleeing ally, then El Dragon is going to clothsline in and knockup miko AND possibly the fleeing tarrget (cutting off healing), and then you both are going to continue to get shot at by the rest of the team. At least Reyna is cutting off the fire from the rest of the team with her barrier.

And pretty much everything else you just listed is either:
A) not going to secure a kill (kleese slow ass telegraphed ult wtf?)
b) work just as well against miko (attikus pounces right at miko, deande holotwining to backline, boldur bolderdashes tank into miko since miko is standing behind him, etc).

Miko is not a rescuer and I have already pointed out that Reyna does this job better than Miko. The counterpoint I have presented has nothing to do with how well Miko fares in the same situation. How Miko fares in the same situation is irrelevant. This point as has been clearly pointed out by my previous post was to explain how Reyna’s other skills are not saving her allies lives when her Shield Booster isn’t available. The point is to show the limitation that exists for her ability to save allies and keeping the team healed at the same time.

Is it irrelevant though? This is a team game and team composition means a lot. You are trying to make a blanket statement that Miko is the absolute best support, regardless of team composition. I’m arguing that all supports have their strengths and weaknesses. Team composition is going to have a lot to do with how effectIive each support performs with her allies and against her enemies. A smartly planned team composition can minimize a supports weaknesses while also exposing some of the other supports flaws.

I won’t deny that Miko(or maybe Ambra) is probably the best support to just throw into a random pug with no coordination or strategy, but when you start getting into organized strategies, the other supports have some clear advantages over miko(and vice versa).

Yes, this argument is irrelevant. No, that is not my main argument. The main argument as has been stated multiple times (including in my previous post) is that Miko’s “weaknesses aren’t significant enough to exploit them to the degree that you can exploit the weaknesses of every other support character. Nowhere am I saying that Miko has no weaknesses (clearly it does and I have already acknowledged this).”

I don’t understand how you are constantly responding to me, yet failing to read this (or understand it) which has been written multiple times. I know that all the supports have their own strengths and weaknesses, but that is not what the argument is about. I know that team compositions mean alot in a team game. Team composition is going to effect how well certain strategies can be applied, but Miko’s options are still inherently stronger than the options of the other support characters as thoroughly explained in my previous posts, which leads to the main problem at hand.

But you are just completely ignoring his flaws and then acting like he has none. You seriously think no one is going to be able to punish miko for standing in the thick of battle. And you deny that his large Crit spot and lack of shield is ever going to be an issue when he has to stand just a few feet away to be in range of his healing beam. This is why I’m telling you to open your eyes. You can see a million ways to counter any other support no matter how unlikely the scenario is, but you have blinders on when it comes to countering Miko.

I see how all of the supports can be countered. I’m not saying Miko is a bad character or that he has no way to get around certain situations, but I recognize the problem areas that miko has. You seem to be unable to recognize these flaws and how they can be exploited for whatever reason.

I have written multiple times that I acknowledge Miko’s weaknesses. If you are failing to read that, then I can’t do anything about that. I have also addressed your arguments multiple times, even having to repost what I have already written multiple times. I would suggest that you reread my posts from the beginning.

No, that team composition is not going to work better with Miko in a head to head. Reyna actually has the ability to counter that strategy with her Shield booster, whIle miko does not. Miko is better at sustained healing, while reyna is better at dealing with burst damage (which this is). Reyna is also unlikely to get subliminated in this situation as she will be standing back further than miko.

The ideal Reyna team is going to have one strong Frontline tank to harass the enemy front lines. In the back, you are going to have a couple characters with some good CC to keep the back lines clear, and someone with strong lane clear. By doing this, you are minimizing the risk of the backline characters. Melees will have to slip past my front line, only to encounter a bunch of CC. Incoming fire can be avoided by backline by getting behind cover or Reyna’s barrier. Another benefit of this type of formation is that it will shift most of the focus towards the one frontline character, which Reyna will almost constantly be shield boosting.

I don’t believe this same setup would work as well for miko. Miko would be forced to move up with his tank to heal him, leaving him exposed. If you went the melee tank route, I believe miko would want a second character, possibly another melee, that can move up with miko and protect him from any attempted ganks.
One thing I will give you, is that Miko can get away with a greater variety of formation types. That’s what happens when you have a character that is just super focused on one thing. If you want to say that makes Miko better than other supports, then ok. But with the right team formation, the other supports can perform just as well as miko.

This argument is also not relevant, and I hope to make this the last irrelevant argument that I address from you in this thread. I will briefly explain 2 important things about this point.

First I will explain why this is irrelevant. The reason why it is irrelevant is because as mentioned in my original post, I have already acknowledged that there are multiple ways to counter Miko. Supposing that this was a way to counter Miko, it doesn’t address the argument at all (nowhere in my argument did I say that Miko cannot be countered). The main problem is that due to its support and ability to defend itself, it significantly limits the amount of counters and how well it can be countered in comparison to every other support character. Hence the problem isn’t that Miko has no counters or can’t be countered. It’s that it is inherently more difficult to do so in comparison to every other support character. A simple way to think of this may be to use Alani as an example or Galilea from beta. There are ways to beat those characters (there are viable counters), but their options are too effective in comparison to the other characters that fulfill the same role.

Now I will explain why Miko does better here. As you have already noted, Miko will not use the same strategy, due to how it supports its team. However, all of the disadvantages that Reyna has early game (that I have already went over in previous posts), will be the first issue that has to be overcome. Reyna can’t cancel CC until level 6 and she can only cancel CC on one other character. That’s assuming that she even has Shield Booster on in the first place and assuming that she reacts well within a second to realistically cancel at least the last .5 seconds of stun (in Kelvin’s case). Also Kelvin’s sublimate isn’t invincible and there are counters to it that Miko’s team can apply. For example, Kelvin can be CCed by Ghalt’s traps. I have actually faced multiple teams that had Miko running on top of Ghalt’s traps (His team’s Ghalt) to protect himself from close encounters (including Kelvin’s Sublimate). It was quite effective.

It appears that we have reached the end of this argument here because you are consistently failing to not only address my points, but you continue to make the same arguments (that have already been addressed) or continue to make arguments that are irrelevant (making me waste time on explaining why said points are irrelevant). I have addressed this last piece to help you understand the situation better, and hopefully this allows you to become more productive with your arguments in the future. Unfortunately this has become counterproductive for me as it is wasting my time at this point (especially if you don’t understand the reasoning by now).

I have posted plenty of information in regards to this, and so I will just have to trust that the developers address Miko in the future. Fortunately, more and more people seem to be understanding the issue better. This will be my last post in regards to this issue, unless I deem it necessary to continue. Hence, your possible response to this post may be ignored.

#144

I do think that that “1. Miko should heal less the farther away from the character Miko is” is actually a good idea.

1 Like
#145

Your original argument was:

As I have proved, this is not true because you can just as easily form a team that plays to the other strengths of the other support characters. Your attempts to counter my game plans with obscure situations that can easily be avoided with proper positioning (and just not being a bunch of idiots, as all the teams in your arguments are) are getting quite silly. We can go back and forth all day on how one can support can counter the other. You seem to think Miko is harder to counter, I don’t agree at all. Your evidence has shown me nothing as I can see right through to an easy counter to everything you say.

You want to look at the miko issue inside a 1v1 or 2v2 vacuum, which is why you are unable to see the inherent flaws that can be easily exposed by the other team. In a team setup that is formed with a defensive and offensive gameplan, I have shown that Miko is no better suited for the battlefield than any of the other supports.

I believe gearbox and most of the community agrees that Miko is in a good place right now. So you can go on crying about Miko, but don’t expect any changes soon.

#146

Well, not to speak for “every other MOBA” but you certainly can do this in Smite. I body block for people with supports all of the time, stand in front and tank the damage while your hunter fires through you. But I digress…

People are missing the true problem with MIKO… it’s the infinite heals. Yes, you can kill them in a fight, you can kill who he’s healing, you can force them back… but if you have any other support (even including alani) then after that fight you have to back, or only one person can get healed up (pre lvl 5 on kleese) etc., you have a limitation caused by the damage done in that fight… a Miko team, even before level 5, just steps out of combat and right back in.

My issue with Miko isn’t his “in a fight” healing beam, that’s manageable, he’s manageable in a fight… it’s the extra heal power he brings the moments afterward that no other support comes close to.

At this point in the Meta, if you don’t have Miko on your team, you’re at a significant disadvantage just from sustainability. If you have her on your team, you only have to back out of combat for a few seconds, while any team without her has to retreat for much much longer.

2 Likes
#147

That’s an interesting discussion point. Off the top of my head, I’m not sure how you solve it without doing something crazy like making the beam not push health past 50%.

Maybe not the worst idea I’ve ever had…

#148

Well, I think the solution that’s been brought up before, about him having a cooldown on the heal beam is a viable option (makes him able to save in a fight, but have to wait to heal everyone up after.

I also think the overall solution is to increase the healing on the heal stations (right now they’re useless)

I like the idea of increasing their healing, but make it so that healing is divided among however many people are on the station at one time (heals one person a lot, a lot of people a little) I think that would make it more viable to just heal up and stay after one engagement, but still punishes a team for losing a large fight. (it would also make the “we got your supply station room, lolololol” situation a little more manageable)

1 Like
#149

Yeah, I’ve seen your suggestions on the heal station and am in agreement there.

Not so much a fan of a cooldown on Miko’s beam. I feel like there has to be a more elegant solution than that.

1 Like
#150

Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of it either, but I struggle to see how you can make her still do her job (healing people under fire) and somehow still manage her ability to keep an entire team on the front-line all of the time.

Most other healers have limitations to their healing, you charge it up, get stacks, it expires, or enemies can kill it. Miko’s is a little different.

I think nerfing it’s power back causes problems because then all she would do is hang back and heal (which is the opposite of what I think the intention with her is)

I think the best solution is just to increase the station so she’s not such a requirement, like she is right now. I dunno though, these are the questions that keep me up at night :stuck_out_tongue: