I mean okay, I get someone has a problem that IB can pump damage without as much gear as other VH and that is a problem on balance. I don’t agree to that idea, but I do understand how some might have issue with that.

But first, I want to point out making Moze herself as good as other VH must come BEFORE putting IB into ‘balance’. Moze has still tons of issue on her. The reason most Moze mains not complaining now is just because IB is what makes Moze stand next to other VHs. Nerfing IB now will of course dump Moze into where she was for so long time: under Amara and Jane’s butt.

I want to ask, if that kind of balance is so important, why is Moze being slower than other VHs not unfair? Why is Moze having no utility whatsoever other than healing and damaging fair? Why is Moze not being able to use her own capstone properly fair? Why is Moze having to suffer as the worst character in the game for MONTHS fair?

Moze’s SoR tree needs complete rework, her mobility is awful, she relies strictly on splash weapons, she has no utility whatsoever excluding the one second immortality getting in and out of IB, and the animation getting in and out of IB is hugely clunky. Shouldn’t Moze have some trait on her to compensate for her issues?

Amara is a siren with three action skills(though everyone uses Phasegrasp to be honest), who can control crowds with ease and bust both her power and survivability to nirvana. Her best trait is the crowd control, and nobody’s having a heart attack by how she can tie multiple mobs and basically grab buffs out of thin air(like, literally).

Jane is a comedic gunman who uses two action skills like a trickster, being able to choose between survivability, damage, and debuffing. His best trait is the survivability, and no one is complaining about how he can get his shield up almost forever AND have another action skill to do damaging for him or give him even more survivability.

FL4K is a hunter that can either make himself invisible and safely do tons of damage or make pets do his bidding. FL4K’s number one trait is purely the ability to kill, and the presense of the pets. FL4K has the ability to crit with ease, and I heard his pets can do MASSIVE damage.

So what is Moze’s trait? Moze’s trait is pure firepower. Moze should be a master of arms and explosives, and her number one trait is designed to be damage. Moze is the least mobile, has the weakest survivability, and her main weapons are pretty much limited to the splash weapons. Her ability that overcomes such penalty is to pump up her firepower to the limit, and either become a running machine gun endlessly pouring ammo or a living Nuke making Mister Torgue proud(or both).

In this trait, IB being able to deal massive damage fits Moze’s character perfectly. She doesn’t have any kind of utility except for doing damage, and no matter what build you make your skill is the IB. Some weapons do close-range, Some weapons do mid-range, some weapons do pinpoint damage, some weapons do crowd damage. She can either choose to become IB and sweep the battlefield inside it, or fight beside IB while IB does what Moze cannot do.

So, if you think IB is overpowered, do something to make Moze not miss IB BEFORE THE NERF. Make Moze have the highest damage output without relying on IB so much, or give her some utility that matches her character. If not, the so-called ‘OP IB’ is what Moze stands out for. It doesn’t make her op, it finally makes Moze as good as other VHs. Before you argue on and on how IB is broken, I wish everyone realizes that Moze herself is LITERALLY broken in so many ways. Even with three massive buffs in a row, she’s got a long way to go. IB patch was a huge leap, and if you decide that’s illegal make Moze run farther before leaping back.



This would be hilariously funny if it weren’t so blatantly untrue…


Please correct me if I’m wrong; I’m not a FL4K main. Though it’s not the main point, I am sorry for FL4K if he’s still having issues with his pets.


Sorry, just gotta nip this in the bud wherever I see it. Don’t want people thinking the fight for FL4K is over :wink:

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Only the magma puddle from his fire Spiderant does massive damage and it is very random, his other pet variations aren’t too impressive.

Also, all Gearbox has to do is return Vampyr to the way is worked at launch, activated by tesla grenades like the Hex and Stormfront. I still can’t believe they nerfed that when in BL2 you could do the same thing with any Vault Hunter using a Rubi and Tesla grenade at early game.


No you couldn’t. At launch Moze could stand still in M3, which was considered very hard at the time and just throw grenades with absolutely no risk or guns. We don’t need that.

As for @sean9900 Moze needs some fixes, but so do all the VH. Even Amara and Zane have tons of bugs. This entire game is just bugs. I feel like an Entomologist when I play.

Also the Moze capstone still works, just only with certain builds. I honestly think if DM is changed to damage and is made a V1 buff the tree would be fine for the most part.

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We probably wouldnt be in this situation if Moze had 3 action skills like everyone else does…but apparently GB thought it was a smart idea to build a game around VHs with 3 action skills but then give Moze one. Smh Gearbox smh

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Amara and Zane are practically immortal as long as they keep shooting because of the way their lifesteal scales with Mayhem 10 weapons, Spamming a CMT or Spring Epicentre is completely tedious in comparison.

Edit: Also back at launch the Hex and Firestorm actually did significant damage compared to now so it is not the same situation.

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X2 Well said

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I haven’t been very active on the forums this week as I have been having fun playing. But I was a little shook when I got on here to see so many people saying IB needed nerfed.

First of all, the animation to get into IB is dreadfully slow without jumping before pressing AS button. Then you get a powerful action skill for a decent amount of time(this is dependent on COM). Then you get shoved out into almost certain death while you try to get your cooldown back with some AWFUL CDR skills and a overkill cooldown. I see no fault in IB crushing enemies when Zane’s clone is just as potent(gear depending) AND can be teleported around the map. Amara gets all sorts of cooky action skill scaling with TTB and no downside. FL4K’S pets still kinda suck outside of a couple attacks that are VERY inconsistent and not that impressive when you you do the maths on how much health enemies have at M10. One Scorcher pool won’t kill a badass flesh enemy.

If they nerf IB, they should nerf TTB and Clone. Sorry, Moze has got the Shaft since last fall and now she can’t have any fun?


I think Moze is in a pretty good place now performance wise, and just needs more QoL Improvements. I’m just concerned by the way GB has chosen to go about buffs. Why would short fuse get AS scaling? Why is fire in the skag den way more than it says on the card? I guess because it’s easy and can be inevitably tweaked down in subsequent ‘fixes’?

I’m all for the community finding hidden interactions and mechanics but it’s not very transparent - a player who isn’t on forums or following endless YT vids would never know this from the way things are worded.

Trying not to be too cynical/negative but history says GB are utterly incapable of properly rebalancing skills without breaking another ten things at the same time so I guess the way of balancing is going to be massive hidden buffs to random skills where they can get away with it.

Personally I’m waiting for next week when scrappy gets a hidden 800% AS damage buff.



His name is Zane … with a Z.


Yeah, I wouldn’t mind some gun damage buffs in SoR…
I dunno, make Phalanx Doctrine a multiplicative buff instead of additive.
And replace Force Feedback with something like Axton’s Quick Charge.
It would make non-splash Moze more viable.

Bloodletter team :call_me_hand:

Yeah you are totally right Foot Moze has no damage she’s so weak compared to anyone else especially if you put any points in the red tree. Her ability to have the biggest shields in the game by far while endlessly throwing nades while endlessly holding the trigger and making the best use of splash weapons of anyone are totally not unique redeeming qualities to Moze. Buffs needed pls my enemies don’t die from just looking at them pls buff… Also pls make me immune to splash damage because I shouldn’t need have to put any effort into not dying at all. Don’t forget to give my 200k shield build a shield gate so I literally never have to die. Better idea- just give me a million HP like you gave IB. I know IB still currently one shots everything on the map even in this build here that has literally nothing at all invested into IB but its still not fair so please make me god. Ty GBX.


Just saying, I wouldn’t mind if the percent being lowered for DM and making it a V1 general damage bonus.

Yep but would love an action skill that goes with that playstyle. She has one playstyle without IB.

Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE bear, love Moze and enjoy the SoR tree but honestly, it just feels lacking. SoR starts as kindof a “buff your team” tree and ends with just some damage. Also, there’s some anti synergy in it. While I disagree with the OP saying Moze is the weakest (she’s not), I think in the sense of fixing some talents, the OP has a point.

[Lol also, @sean9900 rip your mentions for saying fl4k pets deal massive damage.]

In @sean9900’s defense, if you didn’t play FL4K and just went by mostly circumstantial screenshots this would be easy to assume by the outcome of IB and Zane’s Clone.


Yeah. Sucks that the OP prob put 20 min into writing that just to get trashed for 3 words


I mean, if you call 1 response getting “trashed”, then sure I guess :man_shrugging:.

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Meh this isn’t really on topic. I saw a couple of responses kinda being mean to the OP. Didn’t like it, made a comment. Gonna move on now.

On topic: yes don’t hurt IB before ensuring Moze has enough gameplay variety.