Moze Feedback/Skills

Borderlands 3 Moze the Gunner
#22

Oh, sorry. I thought it was about skill synergy, my bad.
Well, she was the Botjock early if I remember correctly. I thought the change to Gunner was to make it more… generic?

She is the new Soldier type, but a little less generic. Instead of gun, fire rate and grenade damage she gets a chance to crit with grenades, bonus damage as incendiary and splash. Also, she gets sustain through the combination of her +Mag Size skills and Forge and this is her unique trait if we compare with the other soldiers imo.
The crit related skills are to add a reward to well-placed shoots and further add to her damage and sustain, but you can get without 100% crits.
You still get sustain and bonus damage for “throwing crap on the wall until something sticks”. But you get more if some of it is well placed.

#23

I wouldn’t say that people are failing to see any particular one’s side, but rather, simply disagree with the opinion that is given.

For a tier 1 skills, it works pretty well for ammo conservation. I would disagree with the statement that Moze would only use low-damage weapons. Low-damage weapons also tend to have a higher rate of fire, allowing the bonus fire damage more opportunities to proc. I see no problems with it being fire damge either. Sure, I’ve seen a few fire-immune enemies, but not very many of them. Shields minimize the damage bonus, but that has been the case since the first game. What the fire damge does, however, is allow a possible DoT to take affect. I don’t necessarily see the bonus damage being physical as making more sense of not, but for elementary weaponry, adding physical damage seems a bit off.

There was a similar skill in the PreSequel for the Doppelganger. It was definitely more suited for mid to late game, due to the availability of certain gear in the early levels. It’s not impossible to achieve, mind you, but the game gives enough various loot that crafting or make-specific vendors would defeat the purpose of a shoot-n-loot game system.

I see no problems with just buffing fire damage. For every enemy with shields or fire-immunity, there are probably half a dozen other enemies that would burn quite nicely. That doesn’t include the enemies who just got their shields stripped either; weapon swapping is a pro skill, yo. Iron Bear also has two slots for weapons, so equipping the Salamander is not by any means a hassle (unless you are referring to the lag when opening up the ECHO menu). I will also disagree that physical damage is much more valuable because it is supposedly universal.

I don’t think a crit hit skill is out of place. I think it’s more of a reward perk for better gaming skillz, yo. Outside of crits, I can’t think of a player skill-based mechanic that would be appropriate for proccing this skill. The actual ammo regen could be a flat rate as oppose to mag size rate, but I think the design of this tree is to incentivize the player for maxing out mag size in regards to the whole build.

Headshots are difficult, yes, but that’s why critical hits apply more damage than other hits. And a damage buff mean more damage applied, which isn’t a bad thing.

So it’s a percentile and not a flat ammo increase. If I’m not mistaken, similar skills in previous games also used percentile rates rather than flat increases (notable exception was Nisha). Besides, what would be an appropriate flat increase that is not game-breaking but also not negligible?

And yes, this game is about choice, but the choices should be meaningful, not just arbitrary. So if you want to use Dahl guns, then use Dahl guns. You’ll still get a benefit from this skill, even if the benefit is not as “big” with other weapons. And personally, I tend to like Vladof over Dahl, but don’t let that influence your gameplay.

Dude, this is free ammo. Why complain about how slow the ammo regen is? As for the regen being based on total ammo capacity, then you got to sell out the cash for several SDUs in order to make this skill even viable. And we’re talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of cash to drop.

Bonus damage is bonus damage, even if it’s in fiery form of doom. As for the crit-proccing mechanic, I think that’s a fair trade over just a random chance. Hey, if you got the skills, then you can pay the bills.

First off, this isn’t a Second Wind skill, so I don’t know why that is brought up in the first place. But as a critical kill ability, the benefit doesn’t seem to be worth it.

These skills seem to be about reward versus reward. Go big or go home (or choose a less riskier build).

Dude, why all the fire hating? You know, Aang managed to defeat the Fire Nation and they’re the good guys now.

Get Deadlines and Stainless Steel Bear. That provides enough staying power that Iron Bear does become a damage dealer.

Overall, I think you shouldn’t downplay fire damage that much. There’s enough of fleshy enemies to be burned and its DoT can be helpful if you don’t use elemental weaponry. Fire damage adds more charcter than just a straight damage buff.

As for crit skills, I think those were implemented to reward skill-based play, rather than having another RNG making the call. If you have a better idea for proccing those skills, then some of us would like to hear it.

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#24

I’m still only working on my first play through, but the fire DoT from Moze’s skills hasn’t been much to write home about. I wish it was either a little more meaningful or they mixed up the elemental effect some — say make one of the tier 1 fire damage skills radiation instead.

#25

I think that Moze is just extremely dependant on specific gear like Vladof guns with high mag size, especially those with bipods to stabilize your aim. Listen, I play on PS4 and the aim is really weird there, but in time you become accustomed to it. And then you will learn to appreciate the massive extra damage.
The Bottomless Mags tree isn’t about having no ammo limit, it’s about Moze literal becoming a turret. With the right gear Moze can just stand there and everything melts. That’s why for example she has “Rushin’ Offensive” in that tree, to stay alive while further dealing damage. BM has no health regen at all, that should tell you something. But that’s the kicker: If your gear or your taste in gear doesn’t fit, then you’ll have a really bad time in this tree. “Some for the Road” is great for basically everyone, but that’s about it. In this tree you need survivability by killing everything before it even becomes a danger.

The Shield of Retribution tree is good with everything, but you want to focus on shields. There’s not much more to say.

Demolition Woman wants you to deal splash damage, so use Torgue and Maliwan guns, plus a good grenade mod. Other than that the tree works fine with the other trees, although “Vampyr” becomes obsolete when you take “Thin Red Line”, I’ll give you that (they could’ve just given the skill alternative functionalities, like restoring shields if you have stored health, Amara has multiple skills with similar dualities, so why doesn’t Moze?). Iron Bear works fine to great when specced out, but the paradoxical nature of it being too strong while being not worth it, is definitely there. There is just no real way to balance it out without abusing it/cripple it to unusability. Worst case you can use “Auto Bear” for cover while your bear refuels faster as you immediately exited it.

#26

I am happy to talk about alternatives to the skills but, so far it has been one sided it feels. People straight up disagree with me and give their reasons. That is a start but, an alternative should be provided. That way I can respond to the alternative and provide my own insight

It isn’t the proc rate I am concerned with on Cloud of Lead, it is the damage it provides which is near nothing even at later levels. That is why I said it is only there for ammo conservation

Matched Set, and the gameplay would of benefited from factory specific vendors imo (Dahl, Jakobs, etc). I did mention that up there thinking that would be a reasonable fix

I think a fire damage buff would be fine but, what about an ignore status? If the enemy has health, it ignores shields, and armor. That would help with the Iron Bear situation in which most enemies have shields or armor (late game). Maybe change Fire damage to do 2 stars to armor?

I get that the tree is designed to max out the Mag but, the problem is the ammo regen is too slow, and on some guns it doesn’t help that much (in the current state). Take my Dahl smg for example. It only has 20 rounds. If it was a flat ammo return rate on Redistribution, then it would help with things like that

I would be fine with all of the Crit Skills like Scorching RPM’s if there was another way to trigger it. I did offer a solution up there. I said you could change Cloud of Lead so it is a Critical every 4th shot instead of incendiary. Another alternative I can think of right now is change Redistribution so it does that. Then make Forge the primary ammo regen. Forge is at the bottom of the tree so if it is the primary then it rewards players for going with that tree

Right now, the highest damage Moze build is Thin Red Line and Desperate Measures (or a unique shield in place of Thin Red Line). By forcing it to the bottom of the tree you balance it out by causing a decision in the build

An increase for Iron Bank that would not break the game would be a flat increase specific to weapons. Same thing I mentioned for Forge and Redistribution

I recognize Forge is free Ammo Regen but, I am saying it could be better. I offered an alternative up there regarding a change. Someone commented that if it was buffed, it would mean infinite rockets. I responded with why not change Forge and Redistribution so it only applies to AR’s, SMG’s, Pistols and Snipers that are not COV, or Torgue brands

I mentioned Second Wind on Force Feedback because I was saying it would make more sense if this ability was a Second Wind thing instead of a shield crit kill thing

Fire in the Skag Den requires splash damage to happen so if you are using Torgue Weapons on a boss for example, the chances of it becoming a thing is likely not to happen. I think for all the work you put in to make that happen, that it could be physical damage or something else

Beyond what I mentioned with Cloud of Lead or Redistribution, I do not have any further ideas for triggers

Narfkeks I agree. This is something I was saying earlier… it should be about choices. It seems like Moze is dependent on Vladof which makes her the 2nd person to be dependent on something (that I am aware of). Zane is heavily reliant on Cool Down. I miss the old Borderlands where the character you picked just worked

I didn’t think of that for Vampyr but, I can agree with that. It actually gave me an idea I wasn’t thinking of

Earlier someone was asking for more than Iron Bear. Perhaps she could get a Grenade Launcher that throws Stickies at a target that detonates on their own. An MGL type of thing. That would give her a distance weapon with high damage that doesnt involve Iron Bear

#27

Eh, I don’t know. It still sounds like you’re complaining for the sake of complaining.

So Moze isn’t exactly what you expected. You’re not happy about that. Fine, you gave your rant, so just move on.

Now you claim that people disagree with you and then they gave their reasons. You then expect an alternative should be provided. Uh, why would anyone of those people even bother to make an alternative if they don’t have a problem in the first place? It’s like asking for a solution when there’s no problem.

Most of the alternatives you suggested as being more “efficient” are closer to game-breaking than quality-of-life adjustments. For instance, you mentioned dealing critical hit damage while making a body shot. That’s kinda broken, as seen with Nisha’s Unforgiven skill.

Your gripes about fire damage are noted, but your “solutions” for Moze dealing fire damage involves negating the whole elemental damage system. Ignore shields and armor? Yeah, not going to happen.

As for low ammo regen, my solution would be to buy some more SDUs. As noted above by someone, Bottomless Mags is about MAGS, not ammo. You also haven’t provided suggested flat rates for ammo regen when you complain percentile rates. But I guarantee you, any number you come up with will benefit some weapons more than others, which is the same complaint you have with percentile rates. I don’t think Moze was intended to have Gunzerker levels of ammo regen, nor should she.

Highest damage with an appropriate rise in risk. That’s a give-and-take trade off. Alternatively, I can still do pretty much decent damage with Fire in the Skag Den and Short Fuse, but without as much risk compared to the above combination.

No, it wouldn’t. If you get a Second Wind, your shields are already up to begin with. You don’t need them to start recharging anymore.

I don’t think Fire in the Skag Den was meant to be a boss-killing skill.

Really? I hardly use Vladof weapons on my Moze, except when I’m using the RPG function of a sniper rifle. Instead, I get along just fine with Maliwan and the occasional Torgue weapon for bosses.

Uh, lots of character builds were dependent on cooldown reduction in previous games. Also, in past Borderlands games, you could just pick any character and make it work, but to make the most out of certain Vault Hunters, you actually had to prioritize some gear over others depending on the situation. If you want to get the most out of the Cat COM, then make sure Lilith or Maya is using an SMG. You want a ninja Zer0? Get him a bladed weapon (Rapier assault rifle would be ideal) and a 'roid shield. What about a sniper Zer0? Get him a Vladof sniper for CA stacking and a sniper rifle stockpile relic so you don’t lose those CA stacks. Going LBT on Gaige? Then go with shock weapons. Going Order Chaos on Gaige? Then avoid high mag weapons, and have a Jacobs shottie for quick Anarchy stacks.

Yes, the game is about choices. But those choices are meant to be meaningful. If there is no difference in gameplay and performance when using different characters and gear, then you might as well go back to playing Counterstrike.

Dude, you got a big-ass teddy mech. What more could you need?

Again, I’m not feeling your arguments. You argue for more “choice” in the game, but then propose mechanics that minimize the impact those choices would make. If you want something more for cosmetics, there’s Crazy Earl to help you. Otherwise, make due with what is available. The game was released less than a week ago. As more information becomes available, more choices will become more apparent, and early expectations should be replaced with empirical testing and experimentation. And that’s a major part of the appeal of this franchise.

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#28

I had high hopes for you. I was thinking you would be different but, you proved me wrong by assuming things about me

It is starting to seem like to me no one sees this problem because they are stuck in their ways. I found a few people on Twitch who think there is issues as well

I provided multiple solutions besides ignoring shields and armor. I said buffing the fire damage was fine. Or perhaps buffing fire to do 1 more star of damage to armor

And again I get that it is called Bottomless Mags. I acknowledge that three times by now. I have been trying to say that the regen is too slow or not efficient

That was part of my point… Moze has too many skills for little mobs in certain areas of her tree

When I said it seems like Moze is dependent on Vladof… it was in reference to Iron Bank and other Skills. That is where her skills seem to maximize

Yes characters are reliant on something but, Zane is more so than what I have experienced so far. Even the Twitch Streamers will agree Zane is one of the worse for early on solo

I fail to see how I proposed anything that would minimize the choice… Anything I did you can still use different weapons for it

#29

My only disappointment with moze is that Forge doesn’t synergize with Mag size buffs other skills give (Iron Bank/Matched Set). My dream was to maximize a Heavy Weapon (vladof) to get 30 ammo in the mag. 5% = 1 ammo per second. Before you say this will be Broken, game is borderlands 3 just get crazy with it, Fl4k players got some nasty Fade away critical combo that melts is worst than being able to shot infinite rockets. CoV weapons also doesnt work at all with forge.

Bonus Fire Damage is great! Just pair it with a shock weapon to wreck enemies with shields. I see Moze more of a crowd control character and yes it was expected that Iron Bear will be a Beast till endgame, Mayhem mods definitely neutralize the poor mech (hope they fix it).

Now dont want to disrespect you but getting Criticals is easy, just spam the trigger you gonna end getting them, my main manufacturer is Vladof RoF is crazy for this. But ended using a lot of JACOBS revolvers/rifles at the end levels 35-50, Redistribution does work. Im curious of Torgue now that im in endgame with demolitionwoman tree. Dahl and Hyperion had some legendaries smg that get the job done. Never was a big fan of those manufacturers. Maybe the problem is that you are fighting from a long distance? you say that Moze is not a sniper so if this isnt the case just get even closer go look for those Criticals even if it means you gonna receive some damage (they cant kill you if you kill em first).

This is my first post in this forum also it’s been a while since I used English. Saludos from Peru

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#30

Yeah, well you’ve been a disappointment to more than one of us here, really. Also, I’ve made no assumptions on you. I’ve probably made some inferences based on your posts, but ■■■■ you for accusing me for making asumptions. Prove me wrong, otherwise.

We don’t see a problem because there isn’t one. I, for one, have adjusted quite well to these new changes. I also know someone on Twitch who agrees with my point of you over yours. But whipping out one’s Twitch cred doesn’t really address the problem, does it?

The fire damage is fine. At least, many people here don’t see that as a problem. As for fire on armor, such a buff would lessen the impact of “choice” in the game. Why should I bother with corrosive damage when I can just burn this fool alive in his armor?

Well, by Salvador standards, yeah. By Claptrap standards, not so much.

Uh, I don’t follow. I’m doing fine against mobs with Moze. For bosses, I just jump into Iron Bear.

Yes, and Moze is dependent on Maliwan or Torgue in reference to Fire in the Skag Den, Means of Destruction, Torgue Cross-Promotion, and Explosive Punctuation. So what’s your point?

This is the Moze section of the forums. Take any complaints about Zane to the respective place,lest you confuse the rest of us here.

Exactly! If weapons all acted similarly, then there is no meaningful choice. Your proposals are making niche playstyles and gear into a one-size-fits-all mold.

2 Likes
#31

In would like to add some feedback about here "Dakka Bear " Skill. The Camera is very un accommodating when attempting to make a sharp turn to the right. This problem is made worse If the person piloting Bear turns to the left. The camera is similar to any other vehicle turret as its direction is determined by both the player aiming the turret and the player piloting thr vehicle. The main problem is the Vault hunter in the turret is shown in a 3rd person view point taking up part of the right side of the screen. I feel like the I retical shouldn’t attempt to push past the players model. If the retical registered the Vault Hunters model as the far left side of the screen it would instead start to turn the screen this would always give the player a clear view of what they are aiming at.

“Dakka Bear” is a really cool skill and it is even cooler when mixed with “Auto Bear”. I really hope they do some work on the camera of this skill so it can be 100% user friendly.

#32

I guess i do not ser your point…

But what i can see is: you say a gunner should work X way but It was designed Y way.

You are providing ways to fix this

People say Y is fine you just need to adjust, not because something was broken/op in the past means this should be like that or is bad.

People give arguments why your solutions like 4 body shots = crit or ignore the mechanic of elemental to favor moze fire bonuse dmg are bad.

If you think moze damage is low i would agree to some degree. But i don’t want an other fl4k, so far i am having fun even tho Iron bear is usless end Game.

My sugestion would be to add x% armor based on moze hp or shield, and weapons based on her coresponding weapon like nade launcher and her nades.
But we need to be very carefull as IS something zane kinda do.

#33

You pointed out all this stuff, but do you have a way to fix it or any ideas on how you could?

#34

In regards to, at the very least, the Bottomless Mags issue OP seems to have

Possible spoilers? Idk. Watch at your own discretion

#35

The only issues i have with Bottomless Mags tree, is Dokka Baer is useless. I know what they where trying to do but it doesn’t work. It should be a health regen skill like 5% health for 3 sec on critical hit. If health is full it grants 5% shield regen for 3 sec. If shields are full it gives 25% extra dmg to enemies. And " Click, Click" is out of place in a bullet regen tree. If your getting crits on a regular basis you never benefit from it.

#36

Having played Moze a bit, my biggest issue at endgame is feeling shoehorned into Vampyr for in-combat healing/sustain. Getting a massive shield is great, but the ability to restore it outside of Vampyr is kind of weak and becomes an issue in larger, longer fights. Boosts to shield recharge are cool, but it’s still gonna take ~20 seconds to restore a large shield (assuming a ~40k shield and recharge only boosted up to about 2k). A single hit stops it as well. Hiding in Iron Bear seems like the major, non-Vampyr option (disregarding intentional Second Wind).

Given that Force Feedback (start shield recharge on Crit kill) is made obsolete by a Guardian rank ability, I’d consider adding a few seconds of recharge interruption immunity to it. That way you’d be rewarded for accuracy and there’d still be a reason to spec the skill after your Guardian rank is high enough. Minimal benefit on bosses, but it’d allow for more aggressive mobbing without requiring Vampyr. Staying out of combat for half a minute just seems awkward.

When reserving max health for shields Moze also loses the health gate safety net, so she can’t rely on health gating and then regening her health like the other three characters are able to do.

#37

All BL2 VH had a skill with this effect. Imo, this is what SoR is missing: % shield regen per second on kill.
Could have been Force Feedback.

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#38

The skill “Force Feedback” is bugged, does nothing at all and is a wasted skill point till it’s fixed.
I tested it and the shield did never start to load after critical hits , no matter how many.

And my description clearly says “Whenever Moze scores a Critical Hit, her shields immediately begin to recharge - Just click on their heads”. So either the skill is bugged or also the translation totally wrong.

ForceFeedbackDescGer
ForceFeedbackDescGer.jpg505×714 129 KB

Further the skill “Redistribution” doesn’t really work with magazines lower than 20 and so yeah, taking the mag size was a mistake anyway.

#39

The english translation is that it only works on a critical kill. (ie a kill with a critical hit) However as discussed above, any damage stops that regeneration anyway. Hope that helps!

#40

Forge- Personally, might be a bit weak compared to the other two capstones. The ammo regen is great, but if you’re skilled, Redistribution will keep you in the ammo with almost no issues, especially if you have a COM that boosts it. Add in Means of Destruction and Forge’s usefulness dips a bit. I’d like to see a small buff to it- give it something on top of the ammo regen, like Sal’s Keep Firing, where the longer you fire, the bigger bonus you get. It would mesh well.

Click. Click.- Also seems a bit counter-intuitive to the rest of the build, promoting the use of smaller magazine size guns and purposely letting your magazine get lower and keeping it there for the bonus. I suppose it can add some skill to the gameplay as you have to juggle your magazine to keep from reloading or letting it build back up too much, but that can be tough to watch when you’re fighting 5 badasses and 4 annointed at once.

Tenacious Defense- Is useless with Deathless build. For balance reasons, this might be fine and is the trade off for so much extra shields and gun damage.

Force Feedback-- requires a critical kill and can be negated by a stray bullet. Made redundant by a better version of a Guardian skill, making it useless in end game, where the sustainability is needed most. I’d say make it more like Axton’s Quick Charge from BL2, where a critical kill restores a percentage of shields instead. Needs interruption immunity. It would give Moze a second decent sustain skill that doesn’t rely on Vampyr.

I think the rest of her skills are fine, but I would like to see a tree based more around Radiation damage later on. She could add lasers to IB or something.

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#41

The only reliable way I use Click,click is with using a 0/0 empty ammo Heavy weapon that constantly regenerates ammo from MoD and a bit from Redistribution. Also keeps me from reloading said Heavy to avoid Blastmaster reset. So start a fight throwing nades, with 0/0 ammo heavy, then spam heavy as ammo refills, keeping ammo count low and never reloading.

Damage calculations are also done ‘on hit’ so by the time the rockets/mortars/missiles land, my ammo is 0/0 again, making the most out of Click,click, I’m guessing. However, the bonus isn’t nearly good enough to maintain the gimmick setup (compared to Desperate Measures, for example).