Moze Iron Bear change suggestions

Moze to me was a mech pilot first and a soldier second, all the in game lore and the game trailers show moze in iron bear, not moze running around with a gun.

While I feel moze should have builds devoted to her infantry play, I also feel like Iron Bear is a core concept of her character more so than previous soldier characters.

With these thoughts in play, Iron Bear’s current design simply does not work with this concept, and I feel like some players(myself included) planned on trying to build my character around using Iron Bear for most of the heavy lifting in my gameplay and infantry moze as a temporary status until I can get Iron Bear back.

Changing skill tree’s would fix this problem best, but a rework that large is unrealistic other than perhaps moving skills to other tree’s, in fact specifically I would suggest moving all of iron bear’s related skills to the Bottomless mags tree because that tree specifically felt like it didn’t have a core idea behind it and feels less specialized than her other tree’s.

-Demolition Woman stays focused on aoe weapons and grenades and should lose iron bear skills

-Shield of Retribution tree focuses more on incendiary damage and shields

-Bottomless mags could focus on Iron Bear and general gunplay.

Another Issue with Iron Bear is scalability into higher levels(seems to fall off in the 30’s-40’s area)

To fix the scalabiltiy and to future proof it for higher levels and better loot would be to have both it’s health and weapons scale off player gear.

------------------------------------------------Health Scaling----------------------------------------------------

Iron Bear’s armor should scale off the character’s max shields.

Alternatively, if you want to make players have a hard decision between damage and durability, make iron bear scale off health so thin red line would make iron bear squishy and any shields that reduce health would also weaken iron bear while artifacts and shields that raise your health would empower iron bear’s durability.

------------------------------------------------Damage Scaling--------------------------------------------------

While in Iron Bear you cannot benefit from any legendary weapon’s red text meaning you can only rely on pure damage to compete, thus all of Iron Bear’s weapons should scale off of the weapon currently equipped in the 1st weapon slot.

For example

say Iron Bear’s miniguns do 30% of the currently equipped 1st weapon’s damage(because we all know players are going to put something that hits hard in the first slot like a sniper or missile if this change were to be implemented)

while at the same time, Iron Bear’s railguns do 150% of the currently equipped 1st weapon’s damage

and say Iron Bear’s Bear Fist attack does 250% of the currently equipped 1st weapon’s damage

Obviously damage percentages would have to be messed with to balance the different way Iron Bear’s weapons act, but with changes like this even to builds not designed around Iron Bear, the Mech would still be an empowering ability even if there are no talents to buff it.

To me, Iron Bear being a buff to any build is a requirement because all builds must use Iron Bear so it should be a buff whenever you use it as there are no other options, this is not like other characters who can swap skills if they plan on building around a different aspect of the game, Moze has Iron Bear only as a skill so it must be powerful even if a player elects to put no skill points into the ability.

If anyone else has suggestions or disagreements feel free to share, I do not get angry from other points of view even if they disagree with mine, in fact having opposing views feels like the best way to strike a fair balance because in the end balance should always have some saying a mechanic is fine while others feel it is weak.


Just a quick read, but I think what you’re proposing is perhaps worse or same.

Making only 1 tree offer iron bear skills is already one of design problem. Moving skills from blue to green tree will change nothing. Each tree already offer good Moze gameplay but nothing (outside of auto bear) really matter for Iron bear.

I think Flak skill tree is another example of what you need to avoid : separating skills between ‘pet’ and main char. Buffing your main char will always be better. Look at Amara, most skill that buff her ability buff gunplay (and melee) too. Outside of the blue tree that I find weak, the two other tree buff both gunplay & ability dmg.

Skills need to benefit to both Moze and Iron bear, or people will just favor Moze because it’s with her you play the most, it’s where the ‘fun’ guns are etc… it’s the core of the gameplay.

You can’t have iron bear dmg scale like you propose from a weapon or people will just equip something like one pump shotgun that have crazy dmg.

The lack of legendary effects with iron bear mean that gameplay never evolve. I would prefer the option to equip heavy weapons but perhaps too complexe to manage. When it come to weapon dmg, iron bear don’t have many options in the skill tree. Skills that buff Moze gunplay should buff iron bear.

Another exemple of scaling/buffing : melee dmg. Amara have more melee dmg buff. Weapons can add melee dmg. Relic, shield and class mod can give melee dmg. Items need to have armor/dmg buff as bonus for Ironbear. Special relics that add new effects to ironbear.

I think most gunner anointed stuff I’ve found give bonus when iron bear end. Need anointed buff that actually buff iron bear gameplay. Add dmg reduction, bonus dmg etc… Pretty much nothing from skill trees to gear buff iron bear gameplay.

All vault hunter have 3 differents action skills that change how to play when Moze only have 1 way to play iron bear. Each tree need to focus on a different gameplay. 1 tree around auto bear and using Ironbear as a turret. 1 tree that improve playing inside iron bear (perhaps new movements like trusters that consume fuel and allow higher speed & jump). 1 tree that put iron bear as a support buffing people around it (and moze inside when she get out).

But I’m really surprised iron bear was released like this. They could remove completely the ability that would change not much for Moze.


-My thought process toward moving most Iron Bear skills to one tree was so a player can spec bottomless mags and either the aoe tree, or the shield tree for mech focused gameplay, or spec shield and aoe tree if a player was more interested in infantry gameplay. The reason for choosing bottomless mags tree lies in the fact that it is the only tree with a dedicated aoe weapon(salamander) and a single target weapon(minigun) thus you can have final tier weapon modifications that synergize with either the aoe or shield tree without being forced to focus too many points into those tree’s

-you might be correct, but I feel you can change the % weapon damage so it can work, I specifically mentioned I expect players will put whatever weapon they own with the highest raw damage in that slot, and to balance with that the %damage of the Iron Bear’s weapons would have to be scaled for example if the railguns do 150% of one pump chumps damage they would feel fairly balanced because of the recharge time(one pump can fire faster if it doesn’t reload) and because firing the railgun reduces iron bear duration so there are plenty of drawbacks to the massive damage in my eyes.

-I fully agree that artifacts and anointed gear should buff iron bear, not moze after exiting.

-your 3 iron bear styles of play could be another good route, but I doubt gearbox would remake the skill tree’s, the best i could hope for regarding skill trees is moving skills around.

If gearbox were willing to change skill tree’s and add iron bear gear, I would prefer your idea.

Iron Bear gameplay should somehow be superior to infantry gameplay regardless of skill choices because it is moze’s only choice for an ability, and it removes her currently equipped weapons and gear. Ideally even a pure infantry build would use it as a temporary dps and durability increase rather than a button they never want to press.


Here’s my idea for an Iron Bear rework.

  1. IB first mode is being used as a turret/sentry. It does its thing, Moze does her thing. IB is extra damage and Agrro.

  2. IB 2nd mode is Moze can enter IB and… can now Gunzerk with Moze’s currently equipped weapon kinda like Nisha in the pre Sequel. And IB gets extra damage reduction, weapons that fire automatically using the grenade button, and other perks based things picked in the skill tree.

Iron Bear definitely has a scaling issue with regards to level progression. I’m just not sure if using Mozes equipment to scale health and damage is the right way to go with it.

One thing I want to mention right off the top is Iron Bear should have a taunt effect automatically built in. In mutliplayer it would be a great added bonus to be able to have enemies aggro on the Bear so you could fucttion as at least a part time tank. Maybe have audio of Moze and Iron Bear talking smack and rude gestures for added coolness.

Anyways, as far as mechanics, it really seems like Gearbox could simply scale IB up similar to the way Deathtrap scaled well(all the way through OP10) in Borderlands 2. There are all kinds of precedents for things scaling differently in the past. Even Krieg’s melee damage had it’s very own unique formula for scaling and maintaining it’s relevance though higher tier endgame play.

Im not gonna go into mechanical details because that’s something that Gearbox can handle but we all know that Iron Bear should be tougher and do more damage as you proceed into True Vault, the Mayhem Modes as well as the inevitable Ultimate Vault Mode.

It doesn’t have to be super a complicated thing; just have Iron Bear scale and remain relevant as I progress into harder difficulties . I’m just shocked that Gearbox dropped the ball on something like this, especially considering the fact that IB is Mozes only action skill. And especially after the fact that Gearbox previously stated they have spent the longest amount of time on Moze and Iron Bear working properly.

As far as skill tree upgrades, I think it was already a mistake to try to stuff most of the Iron Bear skills into one tree. It seems like the skills would be spread about the 3 skill trees that are already there to encourage playstyles that are relevant to that tree. For example, Shield of Retribution could have skills to increase Iron Bears toughness while Demolition could increase damage in various ways. It just doesn’t work out well to try and put most of the Iron Bear skills into one tree.

Also, there is nothing wrong with a player wanting to focus more on Mozes combat ability and I think it’s fine to have a in/out ‘Auto Bear’ playstyles but it shouldn’t be the default playstyle simply because Iron Bear has scaling has issues that make it ultimately too weak to remain worthwhile in harder difficulties.

Show Iron Bear some love! Do it right!

I just want a fun balance of in and out of iron bear gameplay, literally all I want the iron bear is kickass let us use it!

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So playing through the story you get to see all these cool Maliwan Mechs and fight GenIVIV. my mate suggested that each tree was a difference Mechs I believe that would be a full rework for the Gearbox team and would be easier to create a new character and post launch i don’t see this happening.

I would propose the following changes which i believe are viable to incorporate.

Firstly i would make the Iron Bear invulnerable but with a limited time that it can be active. This can be extended with the current set of skills and cooldowns which i would keep the same same. with this in place we we be able to tank hits for the team while still putting out some damage.

The next thing Id change would be to see Fuel to be used as a Movement speed buff(Rocket boosters, used for higher jumps ect) similar to a vehicle boost but with no recharge. this can be maxed with the current skill points available. this will give the mech more movement

-skills that would be affected
Security Bear: have it up as a forward projected shield for allies to stand behind
Stainless steel bear: (have increased movement speed and Fuel)
Rushin’ Offensive: (Allow mech and Moze to shoot while sprinting)

I agree that alot of the Attachments and Augments just seem to be useless once you hit mayhem 3
so id like to see buffs to these. one attachment i’m dissappointed by the most is the Bear fist with ‘Close the Distance’ whats the point if i cant grab an anointed or a Badass? Amara can PhaseGrasp?


As I mentioned in another post, there seems to be a disparity between what Moze was supposed to be and what she ended up being. She was supposed to be all about Iron Bear. But in the end, Iron Bear is reduced to a worse version of Axton’s turret.

Like Axton, each tree should have been a mix and match of various IB buffing skills and Moze buffing skills. Instead we get like 4 skills for IB and everything else is Moze. Axton’s capstones all buffed his turret. All Moze’s capstones affect her alone. That makes little sense.

I also think the incendiary damage talents are a waste. If Moze wants fire damage, it’s very easy to get the Flamethrower and wreak havoc or take superheated rounds for railgun.

Instead, replace Fire in the Skag Den, Experimental Munitions and Cloud of Lead’s incendiary buffs with more general buffs for IB.

Ie, change Experimental Munitions to a stacking damage buff to all weapons based on time spent in IB (making you WANT to stay in as long as possible). Or change Cloud of Lead’s shots have a chance to restore a portion of IB’s armor or he gets a portion of your shield added to his armor.

Note these are just ideas I’m throwing around, but you get the drift.

We also need anointed weapons that work while IN IB. Like one that reduces minigun heat or buffs flamethrower range or increases damage reduction.

Moze is designed very well… for a soldier. Just not a mech warrior.

That’s a great solution, make all Moze skills also apply to Iron Bear, bar stuff like Thin Red Line.

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I dunno, I like Mozes incendiary skills. She’s does need some unique skills for herself.

I would like to see them cover more elements though. Skag Den could buff fire but maybe change Exp. Munitions and Cloud of Lead to do Shock and Radiation. Or something.

And have those skills also apply to Bear.

  • Moze as THE GUNNER: When Moze needs backup she Digistructs her mech – Iron Bear – for a sucker punch of additional firepower.

Right in the advertisement for the game just ripped that off the main page.

I will now correct this sentence for the website.

this may come off as sarcastic, but im feeling feisty and humorous atm.

  • Moze as THE GUNNER: When Moze needs shield regen she Digistructs her mech – Iron Bear – as a static turret shield buff with minimal damage and no hope for survival.

Lots of great ideas, but most suggestions involve remaking the skill trees with new skills, do you think gearbox might be willing to do such a massive change? Maybe changing Iron Bear’s base damage and making all skills affect Iron Bear could be enough?


I think they would be better served by bringing the op builds back down to realistic performance standards and buff the mech up to those values so it feels that no matter how you want to play the time to kill will be as close as possible bar going for a tanky build obviously less dps there but the mech should be viable, if you get in it in M3 and its broken in under 2 seconds that’s not viable, if you get into the mech and you feel like you have water guns that’s not viable.

The chance to get a complete class rework are very low I think. Perhaps some suggestions could make it in some class new addition if they expend the actual vault hunters.

The minimum to do :

  • More synergy between skill trees, moze infantry gameplay & Iron bear. Right now Iron bear is completely separated from moze and don’t have much benefit from the skills.

  • I think, outside of the 1 pt iron bear skills, all skills should benefit to Moze & Iron bear. Amara is the most balanced in my opinion. The green tree offer a good balance/synergy between melee, gun dmg and ability dmg. A skill can benefit the 3. Like the red tree that is all about element dmg and benefit melee/gun/ability.

  • Better Iron bear scaling, make mayhem modes affects the scaling (same for all vehicles/pets !)

  • Add a new ability % buff on gear. For Moze that would buff Iron bear scaling (armor & dmg). For flak buff the pet etc… Gear need to affect Iron bear like melee scaling.

  • More work : new relics tailored for Iron bear gameplay.

  • New anointed effects that buff playing inside Iron bear.

I think it’s a minimum.


Yes. Gearbox is really stupid.
What were they thinking? I really don’t know.
I heard about the news that they spent 11 months on designing Iron Bear. So what? Still end up a trash.
Listen all Gearbox employees, you guys better think of a good fix and buff for Iron Bear as soon as possible.


Mmmm… neh… I’d rather not… But good on ya for trying… Really…

I don’t think gearbox is stupid. I think they play tested normal leveling and probably mayhem 1 some. I don’t think they spent a ton of effort on scaling over that.

Thing is, I doubt everyone who plays this will try the end game content. Our community (forum lurkers) are smaller. While we often have good ideas, ultimately, the dev team likely got 90% of the players happy with the current IB setup.

The hedge is that the long term players are willing to make do until GB balances him better later on.

Does that make sense?

Edit: clarity

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the problem is that even in normal I don’t find iron bear great anymore. And the cooldown is fine. It take far too long to get in (or to exit). Even setting it as a turret get so much time that lot of time I just prefer don’t use it.

And when you start to get more skills and cool gun, well Moze is fun and powerfull. Moze gameplay evolve with skills and new gear, ironbear just stay the same from level 2 to the end. And when you really need iron bear, well it just die and can’t survive. Or you need a class mod and lot of skill points on skills that you use only 10-20% of the time?

I just don’t understand how Moze was shipped like this, how designer and tester found the class fine. The vehicle class concept is cool, but the execution… just at the lack of skill that really affect iron bear gameplay or moze/iron bear synergy. Or the scaling problem. Every players just noticed the problem from the stream before launch.


The biggest thing that bugs me is that even if they did test it for all of normal.

at level 50, my guns have higher dps than iron bear, and that should not be possible.

Since it replaces the character(and i like that so please dont turn it into a turret) it should always be a damage increase.

If they took all the skills that affect Iron Bear’s damage away, but had Iron Bear base its damage off my gear somehow, It would still be more useful than it currently is.


Like the OP, I was also really hoping Iron Bear could be the integral skill for Moze. I had a TON of fun leveling up with her and jumping in Bear was an amazing experience. However, it all falls apart in TVHM.

I agree that “pets” are generally, and should be, less beneficial than the actual character. They should be supplemental. But Bear is different and is really what makes Moze decidedly different than a powerful character with a pet. She doesn’t have super abilities (Siren) or crazy assassin training or built-in tech. She’s basically infantry–a normal fighter. Her mech is what really separates her from just an average soldier.

That said, I’m fine with the reduced damage bear does (although the nuke is satisfyingly visceral and the frost minigun is still awesome). Such “static” weapons will never be able to compete in a straight dps match-up with the myriad of legendaries and even blue/purple weapons with crazy abilities without just becoming stupidly overpowered. My biggest gripe is the health. In TVHM, unless I stand at the back or am only facing a couple regular enemies, Bear gets destroyed in seconds. I may as well spec out of Auto-Bear because he never has a chance to be active. Fuel consumption? Doesn’t matter–he’s dead before I can use all the standard level fuel anyway. I didn’t try the Salamanders until TVHM and boy was that a disappointment. Since they’re close range, you have no choice but to be in the thick of it. I didn’t even get an enemy to half health before Bear was destroyed. I have all the talents I can find that affect his survivability (even 7/5 of the increased armor one in the blue tree from a class mod) and the 20% shield in the red tree.

Obviously, there will be swarms that will tear him apart regardless, but if his health was increased to the point that he could withstand the average mob size for a better length of time, he would be as fun as he was while leveling in normal mode. Maybe make it armor based (maybe it already is, I can’t tell) so he takes reduced damage from everything but corrosive.