Moze is Once Again in a Terrible Spot

For those of you unaware, Moze is the worst Vault Hunter. After maining her since the game launched and having over 16 days on her, I am still frustrated with the lack of attention she gets from Gearbox.

While I highly appreciate the changes she got on the past like Life Steal, Scrappy gun damage, and more, I still feel like she needs better.

Before the Guardian Takedown update, Moze was doing very good damage and was just as good as the other VHs since pairing the 300/90 anoint with the Mind Sweeper would give her really good DPS.

BUT OF COURSE, Gearbox nerfed the 300/90 anoint making it and Moze very underwhelming. She is back to doing disappointing damage unless you’re using the top weapons like the Sandhawk, Monarch, Backburner, etc.

Gearbox could improve her very easily by doing 2 things:


While Moze’s blue tree is fairly balanced, her green and especially red tree have badly designed skills that need to be addressed.


The focus of this skill tree is to give Moze ammo regen and to keep her mag full at mostly all times. Skills like Cloud of Lead, Matched Set, Redistribution, The Iron Bank, Some for The Road, and Forge all contribute to her ammo regen.

The problem here is: Click Click, The best gun damage skill in the tree only applies depending on how empty your magazine is, which means that the fuller your mag the less damage you do. This is extremely counterintuitive since if a player goes down this tree they will most likely be trying an infinite ammo build where their mags rarely go down.

Simply making Click Click’s damage apply the fuller the mag would solve this problem.

  • RED TREE -

Similar to the green tree, Moze’s red tree has a very specific function: Keeping her shield up by increasing its capacity, delay, and everything else.

Skills like Thin Red Line, Vladof Ingenuity, Behind the Iron Curtain, Forced Feedback, and Phalanx Doctrine all contribute to Moze having the THICKEST shield around. Playing with this setup means that your shield will rarely go down especially when combining it with a Deathless artifact and Life Steal.

The problem here is: The capstone of this tree (which is supposed to be the strongest skill), Tenacious Defense, only activates once your shield breaks??? WHAT IS THE POINT OF INVESTING SO MUCH INTO KEEPING YOUR SHIELD UP IF THE CAPSTONE’S DAMAGE ONLY APPLIES WHEN IT BREAKS.

I am not really sure of what to do with Tenacious Defense but I feel like it could work similarly to Armored Infantry: Moze gets gun damage when her shield is up. Also, bump that 40% up to 50% and keep the Shield Restored perk… It’s only fair.


Do you know Amara? Yeah yeah her. She has a tier 1 skill called Personal Space that gives her 36% damage depending on how close she is to an enemy. It only costs 3 skill points to achieve that 36% damage.

Moze has similar skills that require specific actions like being close to an enemy: Dealing splash damage gives her 15% fire damage (Fire In The Skag), After reloading she loses health and gains 15% fire damage (Selfless Vengence), While shield is active gain 15% dmg (Armored infantry), and etc.

Wanna know the problem tho? You need to invest 5 points into each of these skills to get that full 15% bonus. Since fire is only viable against flesh, that 15% fire dmg won’t even matter against 2/3s of the health bars you encounter.


These bonuses are way too small for skills that need 5 points. Especially Fire in the Skag, Moze is supposed to be the best with splash and she is literally the worst at this point.

SIDE NOTE: Why buff the all class splash anoint to 200% and leave Moze’s at 160%? considering Amara and Fl4k can literally keep that bonus up 100% of the time do us a favor and buff Moze’s too.


Moze is my favorite character and she will continue to be. Her state right now is very sad since other characters have such an easy time doing the Guardian Takedown while Moze mains are forced to use the strength of op weapons.

Please Gearbox, spend a little more time with her because I’m sure you guys will make her fun and viable again.

Buff her underwhelming skills, Adjust the counterintuitive ones, and give her a way to benefit from ASE anoints.

TLDR: Fix Click Click and Tenacious Defense by making them not counterintuitive, Increase her fire and gun bonuses while making them worth 5 points, and please give better anoints.


Just give her gunzerking.


I don’t mind that Click Click applies to low mag. It makes the tree less one dimensional. There will invariably be times when your mag is running out despite your best efforts at an infinite ammo build (eg. With a rocket launcher or sniper), and this skill makes that situation have a benefit.

Also, think about it: if it worked the way you suggest (damage bonus when magazine is more full), what would happen when your mag started depleting? You’d want to reload, of course! In fact, you might be tempted to reload almost constantly, to keep getting the maximum damage bonus. Now that would really spoil the whole idea of an infinite ammo build.

So you see, they’ve thought it through, and the way they did it actually suits the purpose of the tree, because it gives you another reason to not reload. Also, it opens up possibilities for people to get clever with their combination of guns and fire-rate skills/annointments to find a combination between fire rate and ammo regen that maximises the time they spend on near-empty.

One thing that annoys me about the green tree though is how it doesn’t really apply to COV weapons. They still overheat as fast as ever, which makes them especially bad for Moze since she hasn’t got as many reload speed buffs as the other characters.

It’s an especially weird omission because Iron Bear has plenty of skills about reducing the heat output of its guns to keep them firing longer. So why doesn’t Moze have similar ones for her COV guns?


I don’t think the skills helps Bear, actually, I think they’re SUPPOSED to work for CoV weapons. There was a thread where someone tested them and I can’t find it anymore, because it was a mid thread tangent.


Well, I was thinking especially of the cryo round skill/augment for iron bear guns that makes them fire for longer because they’re colder.

It’s explicitly for Iron Bear, but a similar concept would apply so suitably to COV weapons that it’s weird they didn’t include something like that.

And anyway, we all know that this whole ‘COV weapons have unlimited mags’ thing is a charade. In practice, they’re more or less like all the other guns, just with a slightly larger magazine and significantly longer reload animations…plus an annoying weapon swap delay…plus the inability to ‘reload’ a half-empty mag to prepare for the next skirmish (instead having to wait for the heat meter to slowly go down). So given that the COV’s unique benefits are so slight (and come with a number of costs), it’s disappointing that they don’t receive the same infinite ammo boosts as the other guns.


This was supposed to act like a “health gate” for shields, but it doesn’t work with one-HP builds. A lot of times, you get one shotted by very powerful attacks, and with no health gate, you immediately go down, no matter how tanky you are…

160 splash stays on for longer (18 seconds, instead of 6 seconds for 200)…you could always use 200% instead, but Moze has long cooldowns.

I agree with this (for Selfless Vengeance & FitSD), but I don’t think GBX would…they have to consider leveling and normal playthrus. If both perks were, say, buffed to 25% each, that’s 50% fire damage on all the time…and if that we’re boosted by Stoke the Embers, it’d be a little too OP…you’d be sweeping thru the game

Having your weapon get weaker as you fire them would depress me :cry: …with some weapons, its inevitable that you will empty them, no matter how much Regen you have…I personally don’t think you should be punished for that lol but that’s me


I thought you were talking about the skills that say “use less heat” like matched set which is about cov guns. My bad :joy:

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I would like to tag on to this as I :100:% AGREE! Iron bear? Once again after Mayhem 2.0 is completely worthless again. Prior to M2.0 a patch was made to make Iron Bear viable. Iron bears damage is not scaling at all. I have tested this throughly and the only time Iron bear has worked sufficiently was during the Mayhem 4 add-on and was patched. I completely dislike the new mayhem 2.0! They should have kept this simple and continued to build up from the original mayhem mode. Maybe adding a mayhem level or two at a time to keep track of stability issues. There was a reason in BL2 OP LEVELS were only accessible after you max leveled your character. Also they need to stop the DAMN NERFS!! Gearbox would NOT have to nerf if the weapons were scaled correctly to begin with! This is what happens when you keep tapping in to the core game. An addition to the game should be just that! An addition!! When you want the BEST chocolate chip cookies in the world, you don’t remove the CHOCOLATE CHIPS!!


truly bad skills are still

force feedback (critical hits instead of kills)
carry grenades (something useful)
explosive punctuation (put splash resistance here)

they need a rework or something added first

rushin offensive is just very weird right now
like some OP weapon that is very uncomfortabel to use but you dont want to miss its damage
i think the devs just added immense life steal somewhere out of panic without thinking about the gameplay

TD is indeed a counterskill to many red builds and could maybe give her some special rule about healthgate or “shield gate” i dont know
i dont think it would make her too op, i mean, in this game your shield and HP is dropped 5 times in 5 seconds so it would only slow down her death, not prevent it^^


I haven’t tired Moze yet, but after hearing how she’s probably the worst for a number of reasons, I guess I’ll just save her for last or skip her. XD Honestly that top tier shield skill sounds pretty bad, that would make me skip the entire tree.

The tree is good actually
It has most of her damage increasing skills
Kill skills or reducing her health and getting up to 100% bonus gun damage
But that’s the problem about the capstone
It doesn’t work with a 1 HP build^^
If you play this tree without reducing her health and sacrificing possible shield size, this skill is pretty dope as well

Never thought about the reloading thing. In most situations reloading would be optimal! But if you are using a blast master, sapper, or green monster you are just kinda forced to keep shooting anyway. That is why I thought making it proc the fuller the mag would be better.

I feel like giving her a full rework is necessary to keep her mains interested in the game. I love the game and play other characters too but if my main struggles this much and needs op guns I will just get bored.

Very nice breakdown of my points! I really hope they make TD work properly.
True the Moze splash lasts longer but Amara and Fl4k can literally keep that bonus on all the time.
They do have to consider early game but idk you know? amara still has that 36% free gun damage in her tree. Maybe making them 3 pointers that maximize to 20-25% would be better for their bonuses. Also, Maya had Cloud Kill and welp you know lol

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i wouldnt want her to be “fully reworked”
i like a lot of her skills and i would be afraid to miss them
on the other hand i am really unhappy with her action skill approach and how many of her skills are very unproportional to their tier rank and synergy with the rest of the tree^^

the problem with full reworks is just that…you will basically take something away from people that they really loved
its a huuuuuuge risk

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I understand that! I didn’t really mean a full rework. Just take the useless/counterintuitive skills, revamp them, and boom!

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yea that is definitely needed^^

I’m still waiting for the 4th skill tree for all characters.
In the new tree for Moze, seems like we can summon Iron Bear like Deathtrap instead of getting in it.

When is it coming out?

I hope the capstone of that tree lets you summon an extra Iron Bear. Or some other skill in that tree, maybe not the capstone

Hopefully Moze Mains will be happy in the near future!

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