Moze needs a rework on her skill trees

Moze 's skill trees need to be reworked. Moze feels weak and lacking in variety. Moze has a few redundant skills that wastes space rather than benefit at all.

Under the Demolition Woman skill tree:

  • The skill’s Grizzled and Explosive Punctuation essentially do the same thing by having your Action Skill Cooldown take less time to charge. It doesn’t take long to get your Iron Bear back with just having one of those perks. Not to mention the lack of damage Iron Bear actually dishes out to even want to use Iron Bear. Having two skills focused on Action Skill Cooldown is redundant. I would rework Explosive Punctuation that when Moze does splash damage, she deal bonus gun damage.
  • The skill Torgue Cross-Promotion only doubles the size of splash damage. I would rework Torgue Cross-Promotion to not only double the size of splash damage but also increases splash damage.

Under the Bottomless Mags skill tree:

  • The skill’s Matched Set and The Iron Bank essentially do the same thing by increasing mag size. In a skill tree that has two other skills, Redistribution and Forge, that focuses on ammo regeneration, having two increased mag size skills is redundant. I would rework Matched Set that when Moze has the same manufacture weapons, gun damage is increased.
  • The skill Rushin’ Offensive is a hit or miss. I personally can’t see myself running towards the enemy and shooting but to each their own. I would rework Rushin’ Offensive to just increase initial movement speed.
  • The skill Click, Click makes no sense. In a skill tree geared towards having unlimited, regenerating, and increased ammo, why would I want a perk that benefits to having no ammo? I would rework Click, Click that the more ammo in Moze’s mag the higher damage she does or the longer Moze goes without reloading the higher damage she does.

Under the Shield of Retribution skill tree:

  • The skill Selfless Vengeance is a cluster of problems. The duration is too quick. As I am being shot at by enemies, having my health go even lower with this skill is not ideal. Having to reload gives it no synergy for the Bottomless Mags skill tree. I would rework Selfless Vengeance that the duration would be 15 seconds instead of 5 seconds and have it proc as a kill skill instead of reload.
  • The skill Drowning in Brass has one minor flaw. I would rework Drowning in Brass that it would proc on gun damage and not as a kill skill.

Iron Bear Concerns:

  • Having many skills such as Specialist Bear, Stainless Steel Bear, and etc. that are throughout all three skill trees would be cool to use if Iron Bear actually dealt out massive damage. The motivation to use Iron Bear dwindles when the augmentation Hammerdown Protocol, a nuclear warhead dealing massive radiation damage is beat out by a Maggie.
  • All of my Iron Bear concerns would be fixed by giving Iron Bear a buff on damage.
  • I can agree on a EP rework but not because it’s redundant but because it actually sucks because of how much it gets diminished. I’d still rather it just be made better be not being diminished being calculated in a different way.

  • TCP sure add damage here it’s not an amazing skill and it’s 5 points could use improvement.

  • Matched Set / Iron Bank - Matched set is the good one here if anything should be re-worked it’s Iron Bank and again not because of redundancy like you say but because it doesn’t do enough for the investment. Add another effect or increase the bonus. Having multiple levels of investment is fine for mag size increases (going down to IB or not) and regen potential (going to Forge or not) is a fine choice to be available , I don’t agree with the redundancy argument at all.

  • Rushin Offensive is fine. Just because you don’t personally want to play that way doesn’t mean it needs changed.

  • Click. Click. makes plenty of sense. You are just looked at it in the wrong light. Increasing your mag size is for the benefit of Redistribution and Forge and that’s because they are % based so the larger your mag size the faster you regen - This does not mean you have to actually have a full mag and there are plenty of ways to use and (abuse) Click. Click. .

  • Selfless Vengeance - No opinion here I literally never use this skill.

  • Drowning in Brass is fine, it just needs to carry over into Iron Bear and back.

  • Iron Bear has been proven to be plenty capable of quite insane damage even on M4 by many of us here on this forum. The recent buffs have done a lot for it. The issue is that not enough of the Hard Points are good. There are only 3 viable choices for good damage - Vanquisher Pods with no augment, Minigun with Explosive. Bullets. , and Railgun with Sabot rounds. That’s the only real issue aside from the fact that the only way to get Vampyr healing is using those Hardpoints that deal splash making the other choices even less viable.


Considering every ammo Regen ability is a percentage of mag size, you literally want mag size to make the regen work better.

Bear is plenty powerful.

SV isn’t designed to be used with BM like that. When I use weapons that are gonna reload, I take it, because then my shot guns get more oomph. Me throwing grenades makes the health issue nothing. Also, it gives your whole team fire damage. Have a Fl4k friend with All My BFFs and it’s a non issue.


I really like rushing offensive, it plays very well with high rate of fire weapons to close the gap to your target quickly.

Bear is actually pretty good now, there are just some bugs that needs fixing, like some skill bonuses only get attached to one hardpoint and the 20% grenade annoint bugging out.

The only skills i can think of atm that are absolutly horrible are TCP and the skill in the red tree that lets your shield recharge after a critical kill.

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Grizzled is fine, and actually an amazing skill. The way EP works, it needs to be doubled. Topped Off is too strong and makes the skill bad, it’s clear they made EP before Topped Off was designed.

They won’t/can’t do that I imagine, so I figure just increasing it would make a decent impact. It’s mostly so bad just because almost all other CDR increases are better in every way.

TCP needs a reduction in radius and lose the RNG. Bonus to splash damage would make it awesome, but I don’t have faith they would do that.

I agree. Matched set is better, it has a higher ceiling. Iron Bank should probably be increased in size. And I forget, but I think both mag boost skills are based off weapon card; they should take into consideration boosts done by artifact and class mod before the calculation if they don’t already.

Rushin Offensive should allow grenades to be thrown while sprinting. That’s all.

Click Click can be made useful as kabflash said. Though it can be made useful, I’d rather they fix soft capping mags and change click click a little bit.

My suggestion is weird but it would solve the soft cap problem while maintaining the zero mag benefit that some people like. Make it the longer you fire, the weaker the bonus gets. Still seems wacky for the Bottomless Mags tree but I think it would actually help small mag guns that can’t fire forever, semi autos, launchers, and guns that outpace ammo regen. Though I’m not totally sure how well this would work. If it’s bad, I’d rather it just stay how it is or the more ammo in your mag the stronger it is. The latter wrecks zero mag builds though.

Selfless Vengeance could probably use a little bit of a tweak, I never use it though so I don’t know.

Drowning in Brass is fine.

And Iron Bear needs Vampyr to work differently, on damage instead of splash. Splash can help still, if you hit multiple enemies, but they butchered the viability of almost every hard point.

Also they should fix Auto Bear being a dummy with reloads on several hard points.

But otherwise, IB is pretty strong. I wouldn’t be opposed to a damage buff, but it’s totally M4 capable. I’d rather other changes like animation time and ASE changes than IB damage buffs.

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Selfless vengeance should include a reload speed buff. Moze has none. Although I feel that the reason she doesn’t is because then she could seriously abuse the consecutive hits annointment and green monster. On the other hand that could be all she needs for a shake up to her META.

Like many others on here have said , IB is plenty powerful after the huge buffs he got a few months back. I always pop him up when I am being overwhelmed and have a particularly tough enemy against me. I do agree though that his nukes suck , and all his non splash damage weapons cant be used in M4 because you NEED Vampyr and splash damage to heal IB.

I agree a lot of your other changes though. Rushin offensive should just be increasing movement speed as you get kills besides being able to run and shoot. Moze is the slowest character in the game

But what about her PROs that offsets all these negatives in comparison to the other VHs. If at the end, things balances out for each VH, then these negatives should be ok. Sure, improving them would be great and will make my Moze even better.

I get the impression that often Moze is considered as the weakest VH by noobs and experts alike.

Right now she has lowest capability of balancing damage and survivability.

You can run a deathless build have tons of damage but you have no health gate and can get downed in one hit.

You can run a BM DW build but you sacrifice constant damage for survivability.

Every other vault hunter can passively heal without worrying about health in one way or another but Moze HAS to manually heal with grenades which have limitations as it can leave you empty with no way to heal.

If there was a com like green monster or blastmaster but instead it was consecutive hits stack dmg and health regen. I think that would be ideal to finally be able to avoid vampyre for m4 content and fits in her class as a gunner.


Ib is not lacking in damage anymore. We can get off of that train. We’re at a point where her dps is probably more consistently higher in ib than out of it.

Outside of that, I’m not opposed to russian offensive. It just seems like it was a skill made for zane. And moze needs at least one more healing skill (maybe one in each tree). If not, then vampyr should proc from beam nades.

Those are all of my grievances atm.