Moze needs more DPS

While the hotfix gave Moze some defensive cuffs that were much needed…she still really lacks the punch needed for big end game content bosses. Her builds are either tanky with no punch or punch with no tank. This puts her behind all the other classes. Not to mention the fact that her action skill is almost worthless. It takes to long to climb in and out of the tank to activate a set of an annointed items. She is also limited in the annointments she can use. Any ase is pushing her to not use auto bear while the WEIB anoints are limited creating a lack of good anoints to equip at one time. She needs a WEIB annointed that adds other elements that incendiary. Pls put some more punch into the green or red trees or add a different element to the Moze annoints


All we can do is hold out since the team did say in last notes they are focusing on how to improve moze and see she has a huge damage problem. What sucks is the skill where reload gives fire dmg could be so good if done right. Should honestly be 30%at max stacks and last for atleast 8-10 seconds. Blue tree absolutely needs a major change to some skills cuz if u look at it… wheres the damage boost?
Fire in skag den grenades crit but at a much lower damage threshold and the capstone. That’s it? U look and green and red tree you see alot of solid damage abilities but also they need boost.
Mozes biggest problem imo is extreme lack of synergy in all her trees unlike the other hunters. Some of moses skills are too deep in the tree and I dont think gearbox can change that at all without tons of lvl cap increases so instead of that a good chunk of a boost is needed to just about all damage boosting skills and making some skills in blue tree do different things ESPECIALLY torgue cross promotion. That skill needs to boost splash damage as well since honestly she has no real splash damage boost beyond annointments and small ammo regen CHANCE. The ammo part needs to be 30%imo grenade maybe 3%higher.
I could go on and on but yea hope they look at moze properly and we maybe get a glimpse next week


I won’t disagree that moze needs some additional improvements in certain areas etc but, to say that she lacks damage and have a useless action skill isn’t true, not anymore anyway.

I think moze is in a fairly okay place right now. couple of bug fixes, QoL improvements and revisit skills like force feedback and click, click and she’s there.

Bear trooper and rocketeer needs a boost to bring them a bit closer to the top performers and raging bear is almost already there. Increasing the damage cap from 50%->100% would put it on par with blast master in terms of bear damage while the extra points in SSB will surpass it as it should IMO. Makes no sense to me that blast master provide more damage while on foot AND in IB over a mod that is focusing on IB.


Btw Moze is my most played character at 13 days of game time. This is just behind Zane at nearly 12. So I have a pretty good experience with one of the best on Zane and worst on Moze…character classes. Moze underperforms in all aspects of the class. I like these tweaks that have been suggested by others on these boards…

  1. Torgue CP- add increase splash damage to the skill and make it a %splash area instead of a chance to double. This skill is avoided by so many builds as being dangerous and unpredictable.
  2. Vampry- adjust to give life gain from all splash damage sources. These include splash weapons and the mini grenades from Mind Sweeper mod. Maybe reduce the percent gained from hits or make it a percent of damage dealt.
  3. Armoured Infantry- increase the damage increase to 2x it’s current stats. This would allow for builds that just dabble in the red tree to have access to a good damage producing tree without investing to heavily in the red tree. It would also power up the red tree for builds that focus on blood letter mods and deathless artifact combos.

I still think a super easy fix for Moze sustain would have been to make Selfless Vengeance give you health Regen instead of self damage. Would have made it worth taking without even changing the damage values, and would have given an a healing option that would work with Deathless/Bloodletter builds.

I rarely feel like I have issues dealing damage with Moze, even in TVHM M4. Sure, boss killing takes a bit longer than other VHs, but I never felt like I struggled with it.

Also, I highly suggest Consecutive Hits for Moze over ASE annointments. She has a lot of ways to keep stacks up even while reloading. My CH build maintains 300% gun damage as long as there is something to shoot. Highly suggest looking into it. It works differently (and much better) than what it says in game.


It already does this though.

Also, i too used to think vampyr would be better off as a splash damage version of sustainment but i don’t anymore. No, i would prefer a life regen elsewere to compliment / or even replace vampyr on certain builds.

Sounds a bit like some of the skills gaige had. I would be ok with this, infact i think gaige had quite a few skills that would be amazing on moze. Health regen while mags are full etc.

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Yea, vampyr should not be the only sustain option
Force feedback should be a strong shield recharge skill and the zapper com should be a skill in the green tree


Moze has enough dps. Most of the op-ness in the game is entirely derived from certain guns being way more powerful than others.

Even when you ignore the anarchy - which is best used by moze because you never run out of ammo and have much less reload downtime lets look at some really op moze options:

The main theme here will always be the lack of reloading making moze one of the highest pure dps characters and allowing her to use certain weapons that are insanely bad on every other VH due to ammo consumption/reload. Moze is pretty much the only character on whom firerate is an excellent dps stat.

Equip Krakatoa for red, Lyuda for everything else.
Use the "infinite ammo after exiting IB. Locate and hold down left click - enjoy the carnage. Doesnt require any gear except a top end kraka / lyuda. Also extremely effective with things like hellshock or any other generally super high dps weapon you want that has ammo/reload problems.

Mag size+grenade damage+splash+gun damage+aoe = tediore. One of the build setups that scales damage with the most stats in the game absolutely insane because there are so many stats that increase its damage in a very significant way. Use cutpurse and facepuncher to reload shotgun ammo into your pouch and throw homing mirv purple shotguns.

Torgue is ultra broken but kinda buggy at times. Tried a random purple torgue shotgun i found the other day and it 1 shot an armored health bar on the last DLC1 boss (using the same infinite ammo after exiting IB method).
Literally a random purple.

You can constantly throw grenades while firing as well increasing your dps substantially and there are still a few really powerful grenades in the game like the spring epicenter.

The character is really strong dps wise. She really is.

Green Monster + Q-system also seemed really strong when i tried it because the q-system naturally doesnt have reload problems so adding in moze you literally dont have to reload + the amazing base damage of the q-system. You can legit fire that setup forever.

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I agree with this sentiment. Honestly the damage of Moze is pretty fantastic. And I do not enjoy one hit killing bosses and enemies using cheesy builds. I think asking for straight damage buffs is tempting. But the more damage you have the less fun the game becomes.

Going from LV 10 to LV 30 is probably the most fun part of the game. (I wish it was a bit harder though). Because enemies challenge and damage you. And you dont have the skills and gear to face stomp everything.

Right now, being lv 57 with all orange gear, we literally need the game to have an almost 10X hp boost to enemies to make them worth fighting. And still, most are trivial due to health gate and obscene damage.

Game is still fun though. XD Joys of multiplayer.

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This is a rather conflicting statement as one would be a nerf which don’t think is needed while turning it into lifesteal would be quite the buff which TBH I don’t think is needed either. Just changing it from grenades to splash would be enough.

This is not an “either/or” issue, they should change Vampyr while also giving the other trees their own sustain to cover those who don’t spec into blue.

You can get up to 5 points with blast master. So it possible to skip blue tree entirely and still get your heal.

A life steal on bloodletter would make you invincible. A regen would help bloodletter without making it to powerful while also remove some of the spam needed with CMT and vampyr, even allow you to use a wider selection of grenades.

Vampyr isn’t “lifesteal”, it’s “+% HP on hit”. Filling up ~5% of your shield per hit isn’t going to make you any more invincible than other VHs who can get back to 100% HP with every shot. +% HP on hit for splash damage would, on top of being significantly weaker than the lifesteal other VHs have, also be a lot more restrictive. Weapons with a slow RoF like the Iron Cannon would still only heal for ~2,5k HP per shot and many other things won’t get you anything (even the orbs from the Lob don’t count as splash until they explode iirc).


on certain grenades you get 100% hp per throw because of how the game counts nades with multiple projectiles (implying doing the same to weapons would be completely ridiculous)

its literally that - press button to fill bar to max


Not if you use an actual bossing build. Just about every VH has to make builds in a way specifically for bossing if you want to kill them very quickly. Zane mostly using snowdrift sliding builds for example. Moze actually has some of the fastest boss killing builds when you set up for it. My favorite way to insta kill bosses is SFTR with Scourge but there are several other great setups. Mindsweeper Krakatoa/Firestorm for example. For some bosses even Iron Bear only builds are great for it, Warden for example is very easily killed with Iron Bear.


I was just thinking about this last night. I was like why in the world BM provides more dmg than RB com. I know the answer but my question was more a rhetoric towards GBX.

I enjoy one hit killing bosses and cheesy builds as long as I have options not to use them and as long as they are legit (not taking advantage of hacks and glitches). This is specially useful when farming in console since the load times are atrocious.

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While that’s true the difference in damage between Raging Bear and Blast Master isn’t very big and Raging Bear does substantially increase Iron Bear uptime. If you manage +5 SSB com then the damage difference is actually minuscule. Also we are only considering the 3 meta IB splash weapons, but there are other weapons to use which some people do and in that case BM would do nothing for them.

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Can you clarify which end game content bosses are these? The only boss that I can think of where Moze may struggle ( or do extra work or can’t one shot – choose your phrase ) is true takedown with Wotan. However I attribute that more in the ads. Wotan himself isn’t really a big issue.

All other bosses are easy mode with Moze in M4. Mobs are even easier with her.

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Yeah the problem isn’t that Blast Master excels with splash hard points (it should, let’s not forget BM is a splash com), it’s that the non-splash hardpoint are at a massive disadvantage because Vampyr. RB would be fantastic if IB could heal a better way.


I may have to re-evaluate about True Takedown’s difficulty. This depends if Anarchy gets nerfed like ION cannon.

So I accidentally saw @kabflash’s scaled TD with Anarchy and Moze. It’s like playing against normal mode without mayhem – that’s how EASY it is.

I decided to give it a try with True Takedown M4 on TVHM using only Anarchy and Sapper with similar rolls with his BM. Okay, I know there’s no healing with Sapper and Anarchy but I just wanna see how far I can go.

Main gate - easy
First kraken - easy
Valkyrie - easy
Bridge - medium. There was just too many mobs and I was using kinetic with 125% fire Anarchy. The armored mobs takes longer to kill and this is TVHM too
Wotan - got halfway with him but died.

First try with a not so ideal com and only using Anarchy is NOT a bad result. Also the mods are +2 projectiles.

I’m afraid Anarchy will be “Fun detected. Obliterate. Nerf.”

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Yeah after that video I did several runs on TTD with the same setup. Honestly the gun is so strong there wasn’t much difference at all.