Moze Reborn - A proposal to address Moze's issues

Hi all, long-time Moze player here. I picked her up on launch day and have spent – by far – the most time playing her. I mained Axton in Bl2 and Roland in BL1, so the Soldier class is pretty much my go-to.

But while I genuinely enjoy a lot of aspects of Moze’s gameplay, she isn’t in a good spot right now, and I don’t think small patches or tweaks can really fix her. I’ve come to believe that Moze’s concept is solid, but the execution is flawed. So to address that, I decided to sit down and create a proposal for an overhauled skill tree for Moze. I fully understand that changes this radical are incredibly unlikely at this point in the game’s life cycle, but rather than just complaining, I wanted to put a solution (or possible solutions) out there.

Goals: A re-imagining of Moze from the ground up to address some fundamental flaws in the execution of her core concepts and make her the same kind of versatile ass-kicker as Amara and Zane. Some skills are tweeked, some are moved, and some are replaced with entirely new skills, all with the goal of improving Moze’s synergy and build diversity.

This re-imagining of Moze’s skill tree is almost completely element-free, but makes elemental weapons more powerful. This is done to make her better able to handle end-game content which is almost exclusively armor and shields. Moze is the only vault hunter without a natural match to either of those health types. Rather than trying to change that, I am giving her more broad damage boosting skills with the idea of making her gear more effective to differentiate her from Amara (shock and corrosive), Zane (cryo), and Fl4k (radiation).

Iron Bear - Iron Bear’s base damage now scales according to mayhem level as a percentage of enemy health boost. Tentatively set at 1/10 of the Mayhem health boost, though that would obviously be subject to tuning to ensure higher levels of difficulty provide a challenge. Iron Bear also causes a knockback effect when triggered, allowing Moze to summon Iron Bear when mobbed by melee enemies. Iron Bear’s armor scales off of Moze’s total health pool (shields plus health)

Bottomless Mags
Concept - This is the “glue” tree with multiple quality of life skills, which would synergize with skills from other trees to form specific builds.

Tier 1

Cloud Of Lead - Occasionally Moze and Iron Bear will deal bonus incendiary damage and not consume ammo [5 points] (unchanged)

Dakka Bear - A third hardpoint to which any unlocked augment can be attached. Functions as an auto-turret which automatically fires on any enemy in Moze’s sights when unmanned. [1 point] (changed to improve Dakka Bear’s functionality)

Specialist - Moze gains bonuses for her equipped weapons based on the manufacturer.
Vladoff - Increased Fire Rate and magazine size
Dahl - Increased accuracy, handling, and mode swap
Hyperion - Increased critical hit damage and weapon shield strength
Maliwan - Increased DOT chance and damage
Jakobs - Increased weapon damage
Torgue - Increased sticky damage
Tediore - Increased reload speed and reload damage.
Atlas - Increase projectile speed and mode swap speed
COV - Increased head dispersion (heat gauge goes down more quickly)
Size of bonuses are increased based on the number of pieces of equipment from that manufacturer Moze has equipped. Iron Bear gains damage when the same weapons are equipped on all of Iron Bear’s hardpoints. [5 points] (Replaces matched set and combined with Specialist Bear)

Tier 2

Elemental Economy - Increases elemental damage done by Moze and Iron Bear by 10% per level [3 points] (replaces Stoke The Embers for greater versatility when dealing with shield and armor bars.)

Redistribution - Critical hits cause Moze to regenerate ammo and health for 6 seconds. 5% of mag size per second, 3% of missing health per second. [1 point] (Health regen and duration slightly buffed)

Scrappy - While moving, Moze’s damage, handling, swap, and mode change speed are increased [5 points] (unchanged)

Tier 3

Rushin’ Offensive - Moze and Iron Bear gain boosts to movement speed, the ability to fire while sprinting, and 8% life steal [1 point] (added movement speed boost so Moze isn’t SO slow compared to the other vault hunters).

Scorching RPMs - Moze gains increased fire rate, charge speed (for Maliwan weapons), and critical hit damage. Iron Bear gains increased hardpoint damage [5 points] (unchanged)

Tier 4

Iron Bank - Moze gains increased magazine size. [5 points] (unchanged)

Tier 5

Some For The Road - Moze does not consume ammo for 5 seconds after exiting Iron Bear [1 point] (unchanged)

Click, Click - Moze does increased gun damage the more her magazine empties [3 points] (unchanged)

Capstone

Forge - Moze constantly regenerates ammo in the magazine (10% of missing ammo) of Moze’s equipped weapon. [1 point] (No longer puts ammo back in Moze’s backpack. Once again allowing Moze to soft-lock her ammo at a certain level returns the unintended synergy between Forge and “Click, Click” which gives much-needed damage to bottomless mags builds.)

Shield Of Retribution

Concept - This tree is designed to augment Moze’s survivability and damage potential.

Tier 1

Torgue Cross Promotion - Moze and Iron Bear deal 5% increased Area Of Effect damage [5 points] (replaces Selfless Vengeance. “Area Of Effect” is the same as the role on artifacts and class mods, increasing both splash damage and splash damage radius, decreasing the likelihood of Moze randomly blowing herself up and making her damage more predictable)

Selfless Vengeance - Whenever Moze reloads, she loses 5% of her current health, while adding bonus damage (15% of damage dealt) to her and her allies. [1 point] (replaces Security Bear. Wording is changed to allow for more elemental flexibility for end-game content, as well as to move the damage to a different place in the formula, similar to Amara’s Personal Space, to give a source of multiplicative damage to builds that don’t use the Blast Master class mod)

Armored Infantry - When Moze’s shields are active, she gains bonus gun damage and damage resistance [5 points] (unchanged)

Tier 2

Drowning In Brass - Kill Skill. After killing an enemy, Moze gains a stack of Drowning In Brass. Moze’s fire rate is decreased for each stack, but her (and her allies) damage is increased. [3 points] (unchanged)

Thin Red Line - Reserves a portion of Moze’s health and adds it to her shields. [3 points] (unchanged)

Vladoff Ingenuity - Increases Moze’s maximum shields and shield recharge rate. Also adds elemental resistance [5 points] (added broad elemental resistance in place of shock resistance)

Tier 3

Full Can Of Whoop-Ass - Triggering action skill immediately causes Moze and her allies’ shields to begin recharging at an increased rate. [1 point] (wording changed for synergy with Auto Bear)

Experimental Munitions - Critical hits cause a secondary explosion centered on the target for 10% of damage dealt. [1 point] (Replaces Short Fuse. Has the same mechanics and formula as the current Short Fuse capstone. Damage is lowered as this is higher in the skill tree and critical hits should be more consistent than the current Short Fuse series.)

Tier 4

Behind The Iron Curtain - Moze’s shield recharge delay is reduced and shield recharge rate is increased. Moze also gains added damage resistance the lower her shield. [5 points] (added damage resistance based on shield level)

Desperate Measures - Moze and Iron Bear’s damage is increased based on how low Moze’s health is. [5 points] (changed wording slightly to ensure Iron Bear’s damage will scale off of Moze’s health)

Tier 5

Phalanx Doctrine - Kill Skill. When Moze kills an enemy she gains a stack of Phalanx Doctrine, granting gun damage and maximum shields for each stack. Each stack lasts 30 seconds and there is no limit to the number of stacks. [5 points] (unchanged)

Force Feedback - Whenever Moze deals splash damage she gains a stack of Force Feedback. Each stack improves Moze’s shield recharge rate and delay by 1 percent. Max of 25 stacks. [1 point] (Changed to avoid overlap with Shield Reboot, which previously made the skill redundant at best).

Capstone
Tenacious Defense - Moze does increased gun damage, has increased shield recharge rate, and decreased recharge time based on percentage of missing shield capacity. [1 point] (Changed to make this capstone more functional with 1hp builds. Ideally, shields close to failure would begin recharging immediately, like the Cracked Sash from Borderlans The PreSequel)

Mech Girl

Concept - Formerly “Demolition Woman”, this tree has been changed to focus more on synergies between Moze and Iron Bear. Quality of Life skills have been moved up the tree to allow for greater build diversity.

Vampyre - Whenever Moze damages an enemy with a grenade, she regains a portion of her missing health [1% of missing health per damage tic, per level. 5 points] (Changed wording to improve functionality with more grenade types. Replaces Fire In The Skag Den for greater access to healing, amount of healing decreased to compensate.)

Auto Bear - A quick press of the action skill button summons Iron Bear to the targeted area as Auto Bear. Moze can direct Auto Bear to fire on targeted enemies, as well as enter to use as normal Iron Bear. Auto Bear lasts 15 seconds and has a cooldown of 20 seconds unless Moze enters Iron Bear. [1 point] (replaces Deadlines to allow non-Iron Bear specific builds to access Auto Bear and quickly trigger anointments).

Grizzled - Killing an enemy reduces remaining action skill cooldown time. This skill has diminishing returns [5 points] (unchanged)

Tier 2

Means Of Destruction - Whenever Moze deals splash damage, there is a chance to add ammo back into her magazine. Smaller chance to return a grenade. [3 points] (unchanged)

Light ‘Em Up - Kill Skill. After killing an enemy, when Moze or Iron Bear deal weapon damage they gain a stack of Light ‘Em Up. Each stack increases gun damage by 0.2%. Unlimited stacks, but Light ‘Em Up stacks reset after 7 seconds following the initial kill. [5 points] (replaces Torgue Cross Promotion. Functions similarly to Consecutive Hits anointment, though bonuses end once kill skill ends)

Rampage - Iron Bear gains maximum fuel, armor, and damage. Firing Iron Bear’s weapons uses less fuel and killing an enemy increases available fuel, with diminishing returns. [5 points] (replaces Stainless Steel Bear, combined with Deadlines)

Tier 3

Pull The Holy Pin - Moze’s grenades have a chance to score critical hits. [3 points] (unchanged)

Security Bear - Iron Bear now spawns with a copy of Moze’s shield, which is scaled off of Iron Bear’s armor. Shield has all of Moze’s shield’s ability roles and red text abilities (if applicable) [1 point] (replaces Autobear)

Tier 4

Shock Trooper - Moze gains greatly increased damage for 10 seconds after entering Iron Bear and increased fire rate after exiting Iron Bear [5 points] (replaces Fire In The Skag Den after Vampyre was moved to Tier 1)

Why Can’t I Carry All These Grenades? - Increases Moze’s grenade capacity by 2 per level. Long press of throw button allows Moze to throw more powerful grenades at a higher cost. [5 points] (changed wording to increase grenade viability and usefulness)

Tier 5

To The Last - Moze gains the ability to throw grenades while in Fight For Your Life. [1 point] (unchanged)

Explosive Punctuation - Moze’s action skill cooldown is briefly increased when she deals splash damage. [5 points] (unchanged)

Capstone

Mecha Moze - Iron Bear’s hardpoints (excluding Dakka Bear) are replaced with digistructed copies of Moze’s equipped and off-hand weapons. Weapons retain red text abilities and anointments, but they are limited to the hardpoint they are on. Mecha Moze has increased fuel consumption, and individual weapon heat is scaled off of magazine size. Weapons revert to equipped hardpoint augments when Auto Bear is active. [1 point] (replaces Short Fuse. This addresses my biggest concern with Moze, that the Iron Bear action skill effectively takes you out of the “Looter Shooter” gameplay loop. Even leaving Iron Bear’s inability to do damage, if you are using Iron Bear you AREN’T using all the loot you’ve farmed. This is designed to fix that without the unintended interactions that plagued Salvador.)

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i like most of it
but as a moze fanatic and also hobby concept designer i will give my constructive feedback xD

first of all, i like that you are against elemental exclusive skills just like me xD
however this skill :

had a meaning because it cares about keeping up moze’ shield and shields are very vulnerable to shock damage. so you are able to increase the value without making her unbalanced, by only giving her shock resistance.

this still is too weak for a tier 5 skill
this has been adressed several times and noone actually wants to use it
the function is fine but its just not enough
it would however be the perfect place to give her the needed splash damage resistance to not suicide anymore

i like how you are thinking
but how is this meant?

i mean, how would you use bear fist effectively?
regarding that topic, there should be at least 1 skill for a melee bear build

that feels a bit weird
i mean it would be strong, sure
but i think that you should always be rewarded for focusing and specializing in something
so i think that security bear should actually scale from moze’ shield size
that would benefit 1 HP builds for sacrificing their HP

that one seems cool but have you frequently used it? its a horrible experience to start sprinting in the middle of a gun duel just because you are low on life (except for using guns like the lob)
i think that an easy fix for that problem and still a reasonable one would be to give her life steal depending on how fast she moves
that would allow you to move backwards, sidewards and still have a little lifesteal, reward you for speccing into movement speed and also dont leave you alone completely when affected by cryo damage

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Good thoughts, thanks!

With Mecha Moze the guns would replace the augments (mini gun, rocket pod, bear fist, etc), similar to Sal’s Gunzerking.

So if you wanted to run a melee Iron Bear build with Bear Fist you wouldn’t spec into that capstone.

yea, the thing is just that as a DEV you have to code for EVERY single possibility the player is able to do

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As a vault hunter in her totality, Moze’s biggest issue is Iron Bear, period. They admitted that designing Iron Bear as he is now was the most time-consuming part of developing BL3 before its release, so there’s not much incentive for optimism regarding any radical transformations. And as long as Gearbox go about tending to his problems at the same rate that they have been so far, then Bear will continue to be an ongoing issue for a very long time to come.

However, the issues from piloting Iron Bear are numerous in quantity and they’re an entirely different set of issues from those that Moze has to contend with playing the lone infantry role. So for now, I’m only going to mention Moze herself.

I would go as far as to say that it already is the “glue” tree in its current state. Maybe one or two skills could do with slight alterations but for the most part, Bottomless Mags hosts essential and QoL skills across all tiers. If we were applying a rating system, I would give the BM tree 5/5 stars. I did like your Elemental Economy suggestion though, I’m always down for Moze receiving more damage multipliers to work with.

This is the one skill in the DW tree that needs something extra more than any other because Means of Destruction makes it completely redundant. All this skill needs to do is take a leaf out of TCP’s book and just add grenade damage per level. People will want to put points into that if they’re running a Mind Sweeper or perhaps a grenade-tossing build if grenades ever get scaled adequately enough for M10. If this one skill was given a reasonable buff, I would then give the DW tree 5 stars overall as well.

Although it’s not quite as bad as WCICAtG, it still doesn’t do enough for a tier 5 skill and is struggling to compete with almost every other skill in the tree that precedes it. Either the numbers need to be way more significant, or perhaps convert it into something like Fl4k’s Head Count skill, with chances of cooldown reduction triggered by splash damage.

Shield of Retribution as a whole, is lacking a lot in comparison to the other two skill trees. Right now, I’d give it a 3-star rating and that’s me being generous. There’s far too much emphasis on (highly conditional) gun damage which over-saturates one part of the damage formula, which is one of the biggest reasons Moze suffers compared to other vault hunters. Having said that, DiB and Phalanx Doctrine are fine for focusing on gun damage because they are kill skills and are meant more for mobbing where it’s far less of an issue.

With the exception of Selfless Vengeance, all the skills in the first three tiers are fine as they currently are imho. It’s mostly the latter half of the tree that needs an overhaul. Gearbox has a chance here to kill two birds with one stone - give Moze more in terms of DPS while simultaneously making the SoR tree a viable enough option that it gives us Moze mains and veterans a good headache when it comes to choosing which path(s) to take with our builds.

I think any skill that demands Moze of all people to reload for any reason, should at the very least provide a bonus to reload speed for starters. This bit I’m about to say is still under the assumption that SV is focusing on bonus incendiary damage, but I also had the idea that instead of losing 5% of her current health when reloading, Moze actually suffers from the incendiary status effect. This would convert SV into a Spiritual Driver-esque skill where at least with incendiary weapons, Moze could run elemental projector artefacts without resorting to self-harm via splash damage. You put more points into the skill for more reload speed and bonus team damage, but you could also treat it like a one-point wonder just for setting yourself on fire.

I’m glad you said damage resistance and not reduction - the former is superior to the latter. Moze’s main issue with shields is that the SoR tree focuses a lot on boosting capacity and the higher the capacity, the lower her recharge-efficiency with shields becomes. So either damage resistance or just something to boost the recharge rate more depending on total shield capacity.

Convert the bonus gun damage to V1 damage and this changes a lot as it would present Moze with more of a choice. Although running 1 hp would make a tremendous difference and would do wonders for the Bloodletter, the most important thing would simply be to activate the multiplier first and foremost. This would elevate TRL to serve that purpose so that Moze could then run the Pearl or an artefact that isn’t the Deathless.

I like this idea, but it feels a bit weird that splash damage is the trigger for a tier 5 skill in a skill tree that doesn’t really revolve around splash. Crit damage as the trigger would work well because that can still be triggered by PtHP as well as with conventional bullets.

For a capstone, I think the stats are a little too basic. Armored Infantry, DiB and Phalanx Doctrine already provide enough gun damage in the skill tree. Shield recharge delay also yields diminishing returns the more you try to boost it so it wouldn’t go that well with BtIC.

What I would do is make TD function like Axton’s Grit - when the shield breaks, ignore any health damage and restore 40% of shield capacity. And instead of gun damage, give the capstone V2 bonus damage. For example, 30% bonus damage when enemies have over 40% health remaining.

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And at gearbox their going … moze ? Moze who ? What’s a moze ?

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With Force Feedback, my thinking was that Moze is that it’s less about the splash boosts in her skill tree and more about synergies between her skills and gear. Also, I changed EM to proc mini Short Fuse explosions on every critical hit, so that would give every gun a source of splash damage.

I really like the idea of making Desperate Measures a V1 skill, and adding reload speed to Selfless Vengeance

Speaking of SV, my thinking was to make into a useful skill for 1hp builds (where the self-damage is negated) and Tediore builds. Getting a temporary V2 boost to a Tediore throw or on top of Anarchy stacks could open up new play styles.

It took me a couple readings (I first saw it on my phone), but I like the adjustment to TD as well. Right now I only use it when I feel like using my ASE/Shield Break anointed Stop Gap. That gameplay loop of restoring shields, damage boost, Stop-Gap is pretty fun. I hope GBX brings back the vending machine farm event. I want to see if I can’t get a Revengenader with that anointment too. I had a lot of fun with TD and the Revengenader and an On Grenade Throw recurring Hex.

I did

These were the character concepts I tried to keep in mind with Moze.

  1. Iron Bear, and her synergy with her mech.
  2. She is a soldier, and it is her training and ability to utilize her gear that makes her dangerous. She doesn’t have high tech gadgets like Zane (IB aside), or inherent super-human abilities like Amara or Fl4k. Her skills should revolve around making maximum use of her gear.
  3. Vladoff background. Fire all the bullets as fast as you can.
  4. She’s a survivor. She was ordered on a suicide mission, but was the only member her unit to survive. So she should be hard to kill and the closer she gets to death, the harder she should be to kill.
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Can’t argue that.

My thinking was somewhere along the lines of Maya’s Scorn skill as a game-changer captstone. But instead of changing melee to launch a slag ball, I wanted a change to IB to put it back in the core gameplay loop (looter-shooter).

Also, in complete honesty, I never use melee. It just doesn’t make much sense to me in a game that is built around shooting guys in the face until more guns pop out of them.

same
if there were like real melee weapons i would probably try it but like that, i dont fancy hitting enemies with a bayonet

my (completely unrealistic) suggestion would be to be able to farm iron bear weapons
that would be absolutely dope but very unlikely to happen xD

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Many changes are cool but the problem is that SoR seems a bit too focused on splash damage. I’m always surprised how Moze is more focused on splash damage than fire rate. At least, she could have a “Metal Storm” skill like Axton.

As for melee, well, Borderlands always had melee characters. Brick, Krieg, Zer0, Athena… It adds variety. I’m not playing melee, but i can understand why some people like it, and it should be viable at lategame. That’s why (pure) Melee Amara need some love too. Half of her green tree is about melee, yet it is not viable in higher Mayhem. Let’s hope Gearbox will do something about it.