Moze's Tier 5 skills need help

As has been discussed at length in other threads in the past, Force Feedback is just a worse version of a guardian rank perk. That’s not the only skill that Moze has that’s just bad, or contradictory design (Looking at you, Tenacious Defense).

I propose changes to Force Feedback that give Moze a guaranteed amount of shield on crit kill. Either as a form of recharge that doesn’t stop when Moze is hit, or as a percentage of Moze’s shield instantaneously recharged on crit kill. It should also give Iron Bear either Armor or Fuel on crit kill, as well - Demolition Woman should not be the only tree that has healing or fuel efficiency / refill skills.

Click, Click is one of Moze’s skills that confuses me - It looks to me like a skill that flies in the face of Moze’s Bottomless Mags tree. The whole tree is about not reloading, and keeping as much ammo in your mag as possible. Additionally, I can get much more damage for the same number of skill points out of Desperate Measures (granted, it costs the ability to have a healthgate, also). Click, Click should synergize with Bottomless Mags better. Perhaps a bonus to weapon damage or fire rate the longer the gun is fired, or consecutive hits on a single enemy.

That leaves us with Explosive Punctuation. Salvator’s “Get Some” would be a perfect fit, here! If someone wants to spec Demolition Woman for maximum Iron Bear uptime, that would be an amazing skill for it. Just make it trigger on Splash Damage!

As an aside - Tenacious Defense is a poor capstone to an otherwise very interesting skill tree. It could remain as-is, if it also imparted some kind of healthgate protection to Moze when she’s below 50% health (on the same cooldown as Tenacious Defense, of course). As it is, the only time it will trigger is if you only put 2 points in Thin Red Line, or don’t use a deathless relic. Which, if I’m honest, is bonkers, considering Desperate Measures exists. The whole rest of the tree BEGS you to use a deathless relic and to max out Thin Red Line and Desperate Measures, and then you get Tenacious Defense as a capstone? Why?

Thank you for coming to my Zed talk.


I do not know in what world people live, but as for me, kill skill work well only when they give very large bonuses or they can be activated not only by killing. But, to get a little bit of a shield from the skill of the critical kill? It seems to me that in this state it will still be flawed and personally I will ignore it.
I have already written about it. If you kill enemies quickly, then you do not need a tough defense, because they do not have time to cause you damage and your shield can regenerate on its own. What’s more, you have a guardian rang with the same effect (even if there is 40% shield, GR will be better because you don’t lose a point). Problems begin when you are facing opponents that you are not able to kill quickly. And you can kill them with a non-critical hit.
That is, it turns out that this skill is useless against low-level mobs and this skill is useless against high-level enemies. Maybe in another game it would have worked, but not here.


Fair point! It could be activated on crit hits, like sustainment but for shields and activated on crits instead of elemental damage. I don’t have all the answers, but Force Feedback needs a rework.

Click click is an annoying skill to use, but it does work pretty decently if you’re using forge.

You basically have to have a gun that can out pace forge, ex the ogre 2x. I have 144 bullets in it. So when I start my game I stand beside a vending machine and fire it until I have like 60 bullets and then fill my ammo up. When I fight an enemy it usually stays between 30 and 60 so long as I hit a crit or 2 or stop firing for like 1 second.

The only reason I use it is because that same mechanic of ammo going into your reserve annoys me so much using blast master and redistribution/MoD. My gun constantly gets gets a lower and lower magazine until I’m forced to reload and reset my blast master bonus.

I wish there was an option to turn off auto ammo pick up or something.

Tenacious Defense is fine. Use a recharger and stay above health gate.

Click, Click is decent on an all CoV build.

That’s what I’m testing right now, though I’m not even sure if it’s the best choice to go all the way up to TD… The other capstones seem so much better. Still trying different things with the Re-charger though.

TD does sort of help you survive when your 2nd charge breaks and you only have a few thousand hp.

Click Click sucks and I can’t wait until it’s reworked. Agree with Tenacious Defense

I kind of assumed they are just going to add more points to skills, like raising click click from 3 to 5. 60%, and 120 with 10/5. Unless you’ve seen somewhere they’re actually reworking it?

Stay above healthgate

This is contradictory to the design of two other very important skills in the tree. Thin Red Line and Desperate Measures synergize with each other and basically beg you to run a deathless artifact. It’s bad design to have a capstone that doesn’t match with what the rest of the tree is telling you to do.

1 Like

Playing in mayhem 4, there’s enemies that will hit you for 10k shields, or 50k shields. Putting a point or 2 into thin read line helps keep the trash mob shots from knocking your shield too much, while still allowing you to survive a shot that would down you if you go the deathless route.

The problem is people assume bloodletter is the best mod for SoR tree because it seems so obvious and it’s the only legendary with red skills.

The hype of bloodletter dies in M4 because you just can’t survive certain attacks. Removing health gate for a possible 100% damage increase?

Just use blast master and you have 100 percent damage increase at the cost of nothing, plus you have the choice of any capstone moze has, and health gate, and extra Vampyr to survive hard hits more consistently.

TD can be extremely effective with a shield down build with the band of sitorak, or really effective with the big boom blaster charges. Plus with blast master you still get redistribution to get some ammo back, M4 eats your ammo between vending machines. It’s possible to use blast master (if you have at least 3 Vampyr, and 1 Redistribution) to get unlimited ammo, just enough healing if your shield goes down and SoR tree and capstone to tank a lot more bullets. Also you can still put 3 in Desperate Measures to get 20% bonus damage, 30 from TD, 100 from blast master, 15 from skag den, drowning in brass and if you want phalanx. Use that build with a Re-charger and you get double your shield + 40% extra the second time it goes down. It’s a very solid build!


I have seen this idea thrown around before that I really liked for Click, Click where you would get both increased firing rate the more ammo you have in your magazine, and increased damage the less ammo you had.

1 Like

I think Gearbox should scrap the kill requirement for this skill entirely because one of the main issues with it is the fact that there’s a GR perk which gives the same reward except the kill doesn’t have to be critical, and also because most of Moze’s gun damage in the SoR tree is reliant on gathering momentum with kills. What I’d like to see, and it’s something that would be unique to Moze, is a form of life steal but for shields based on the critical damage you do. It retains the shield theme of the skill tree and provides Moze with another practical sustain skill besides Vampyr; two birds with one stone.

Click, Click is badly designed but I don’t agree with those who suggest fire rate should be added. If you add extra fire rate, that’s actually counter-productive to the Bottomless Mags tree as a whole because it reduces overall efficiency of ammo regeneration if you’re spitting out bullets at a faster rate. Except for Stoke the Embers which is for fire damage only, Moze doesn’t have a true multiplicative damage skill which applies to most/all sources of damage. So I’d say convert the buff into multiplicative damage and make it continuously increase based on how long you’re able to fire your guns without reloading.

EP as a tier 5 skill is an utter joke; a class mod with AS cooldown rate gives you more of a boost and can save you up to 25 skill points. Now I agree with your idea about making it more in line with Sal’s Get Some, but what I would do is make EP swap places with Grizzled and make the latter more like Sal’s skill. Convert the kill requirement into inflicting splash damage, that way it also works in boss fights with little-to-no adds and keeping the diminishing returns would be justified, or like Get Some, scrap the diminishing returns and make it so that it has a cooldown before it can trigger again.

My idea for TD could be somewhat bonkers if not controversial to some, but I’d be willing to wave goodbye to the damage bonus if the capstone was converted into a skill where the lower your health and shields are, the more damage resistance you gain. Not damage reduction because that’s inferior to damage resistance (think of reduction as additive defence and resistance as multiplicative.)

This capstone would benefit any Moze player regardless of what shield they wear or build they’re running. Want to run standard shields and health like any other VH? Fair enough, the bonus will get bigger the closer you are to death. Want to run a 1 hp build? Similar to Desperate Measures, half of the capstone’s bonus DR is active 100% of the time.

Or use this.

What splash weapons do you use? How do you stay in a single mag without BM tree?

Edit: I don’t think you can stay in a single mag without some BM investment but:

  • Kybs Worth / Westergun
  • Ogre
  • Juliets Dazzle
  • Brainstormer (doesn’t seem to count as splash but the tendrils can proc short fuse)

You’ll want to buff up your mag as much as possible through Iron Bank / Matched Set / Cloud of Lead. And abuse Redistribution through your grenade mod.

Also, this build is also the best Iron Bear build as well. Blast Master is Best Master

I agree with most of you said, i only want to add something of my own, i think SoR should focus on SHIELDS and not gun damage.

As the other comment says, guns like the ogre (even the 2x version) the westergun, any high mag gun. You’re going to need an artifact with +40% mag size to make it way better. You don’t need iron bank or matched set of you have that on your artifact.

Blast master gives you +1 Redistribution, and you’ll want to put at least 6 points into BM tree to get a second point in it. Blast master also boosts grenade crit chance so you can toss them to easily get ammo (also shoot for crits) and health.

Only down side to that is when you pick up ammo and it messes with your mag size until you reload which you don’t want to do with blast master. It’s a little annoying sometimes during boss fights where ammo is all over the ground but it isn’t that bad.

I don’t have any good artifacts with mag size. I’ve always just been going to forge. And literally spraying. The western doesn’t need that much, but my x2 orge does.

Keep an eye out! I think mag size and max health are the 2 most important for Moze. Grenade damage is nice too.

i’m rocking mag size on my artifact + com + iron bank + matched set to get my kybs worth up to 100+ mag. It’s not required on the regular kybs but on binary kybs you definitely want that because it chews through ammo way too fast