Moze's top tier skills should benefit the team

There are no true support classes or builds in borderlands 3, at least in the way they existed in previous iterations. The current borderlands meta maintains a high emphasis on aggressive forward pushing gameplay. Almost all talents and anointments focus on engagements that require the player to interact as closely as possible with their enemy. As such, a support class would subtract from that experience.

However, the gunner has 5 talents that indicate an early version of her was more support heavy.

Below are speculation about these talent points as well as suggestions for future updates to talent. The following talents could have been intended to create support “auras” similar to a paladin in classical RPGs

Security bear - a classic paladin protective aura. It likely originally had more health, was reduced because it was redundant with Zane’s barrier and because it encouraged players to stand back instead of pushing into fights.

Dakka bear - (I know it isn’t SOR tree) this originally operated as a safe place for low health individuals and a way to regain health and maintain damage. It probably isn’t changed much, though, the mechanics are horrible, as it’s impossible to aim, so it might have been tweaked into oblivion in an attempt to ensure players didn’t sit there forever. It was an early version of support that tried to upkeep “push-forward” engagement.

Selfless vengeance: originally added a second projectile with fire damage to everyone. This meant a substantial increase of damage for the entire team at the sacrifice of health for one player. Tweaked too weak because of all the other bonuses other players already had.

Drowning in brass: Base damage aura. Again, classic paladin style bonus. Player stays in front line, gains bonuses for entire team. Seems fairly decent for a low tier talent.

Finally: full can of whoop ass: activating your action skill begins filling teammates “secondary” health bar (shield). Again, not an uncommon type of magic effect in standard RPGs.

Suggestions:

The thing about each of the above is that in general, they keep players forward moving and in the fight. The unfortunate problem with each is that they’re not telegraphed well to the team or to the player using them, so there’s no communication that you’re gaining these bonuses. In addition to that, since the immediate effects are so hard to notice with all other items stacking, many of these talents either experience diminishing returns or do nothing valuable, like slightly return some shields. For example, Zane likely doesn’t notice much value from drowning in brass if he’s running a violent momentum build since the additional gun damage is likely negligible.

Beyond tier three, there are no more bonuses like this. If there were in the past, whoever was redesigning her class decided they shouldn’t exist. This might have been part of the overall game design to reduce the number of support classes or items, but I believe done the right way, these talents could still contain those things and make them more valuable.

My suggestion is that the shield retribution tree be reworked with the supposed “paladin-esque”) design in mind.

Experimental munitions: [add] whenever Moze scores a critical hit, her and the party gain X% movement speed for 3 seconds. (Encourages push-forward gameplay)

Behind the iron curtain: [change to 50% bonuses at max instead of 33%,maybe even 100%] [add] team gets half of this bonus

Desperate measures: whenever Ironbear or autobear is destroyed, team gains 12/25/50% (per level) splash damage for 10 seconds. (Encourages Moze to push Ironbear to the fullest and even sacrifice like a paladin does. Forces longer Ironbear cooldown at the expense of strong burst damage for team.)

PD: Keep same, honestly, I can’t imagine buffing it at all. It can be a strong stand alone(?)

Force feedback: [change] critical hits have same effect as redistribution but on shields, no ammo Regen. [add] entire team received some portion of this bonus.

Tenacious defense: [add] entire team gets the gum damage bonus if Moze’s shield breaks (forward momentum). Also, while in Ironbear, the break-refill effect is passed to the entire team, as well as being passed to the security bear shield. This would give the player a huge reason to play with a TD setup, regardless of if she’s using a 1hp build or not.

Tldr: The above talent changes would make shield of Retribution not only just as effective as it was before, it would encourage a wider diversity of gameplay tactics as well as new experimental builds with fellow teammates. In addition, players would immediately know they were with a shield Moze, as they would feel and see the effects on themselves and experience a change in gameplay that encouraged more aggressive tactics than before, which maintains the mayhem type gameplay the current setup seems to encourage.

Okay. That’s all. Thoughts?

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I like where your head is. Truth be told…I think BL3 is a half-assed game. The RPG mechanics look good on paper but are gutted in execution. I miss little coop skill tree and COM options in BL1 and 2; its how me and the wife played. If i knew there was an upcoming group of enemies, I’d be like “hol up a minute. Lets recharge our action skills and reload all our guns”

It feels like even sniper builds are discouraged. It’s a DOOM or hack n slash version of a shooter.

Edit: just kidding. This is the QWOP of shooters. https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/hey-gearbox-any-chance-we-could-get-an-enemy-outlines-or-low-glare-mode-graphics-options-it-can-be-difficult-to-see-our-targets-sometimes-pic-in-comments/4542473/13?u=saeble

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I think borderlands 3 overall is just slightly on the verge of being at its roots when it comes to this current iteration. The shooting feels strong, your action skills have an impact, and the characters are fun. What it’s missing are the old parts that made the coop fun. E.g. in shaft and star 3000, my partner and I just go to opposite sides of the map because neither wanna take each other’s kills and we both just wanna ramp up kill skills. I never felt that way with bl2 and definitely not with bl1.

I believe the talents above and a similar attitude to future changes in other vault hunters would improve that behavior and experience

See that’s the problem with kill skills. The more peeps, the less return on skill points. I avoided kill skills on previous games like the plague when coop’ing even when i was sure i would get most of the kills.

A recommendation is that kill applies to all team members…

Really really REALLY recommend GBX takes a good look at what made jrpg, wrpg, moba, arena successful. You have differnent builds and classes for a reason. A buddy of mine tried to get me into moba; MEH! But the architecture of a ganker, support, push, carry makes sense

Edit: i think they tried this with battleborn…problem: the campaign sucked. I gave it an honest try. Wife wasnt interested.

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That’s really what I wish gearbox would do if they reconsidered these. The hero class setup is clearly designed with that influence in mind.

Still feel like mmo influences are not a bad thing. I’d that that over this live service/event shenanigans.

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I would def love these ideas to be implemented but…

I feel like, VH’s are already so strong/broken on their own, they either wouldn’t notice the buffs, or don’t need them at all to do what they do. Amara is doing billions of TTB damage and one-shooting entire mobs of folks…Zane has a clone doing massive damage for him, and a shield so he’s rarely hit, and Fl4k, well…he’d probably love these lol…he needs the help :joy:

I read that your goal in some of these were to allow VH’s the chance to advance and be more aggressive, but in the multiplayer games I’m playing now, that’s already happening because we’re all soooo strong…

My thoughts on your skill ideas:

Experimental Munitions: I love movement speed, but this probably wouldn’t go here…I think its just meant for more damage on all crits.

Behind the Iron Curtain: My only problem with this is it could be detrimental to melee builds that need their shield depleted (Amara w/ Brawler Ward)

Desperate Measures: Anti-synergic with Iron Bear skills/COMs designed to keep him up, and this assumes that all other VH’s are using splash weapons…10 seconds doesn’t feel worth the cost of losing IB…AND you’re extending his cooldown?? No way

PD: More shields per Moze kill?

Force Feedback: Frankly, anything is an improvement over this…I like the idea…sometimes tho, in endgame BL3, the damage hits so hard and so fast this might not make a huge difference.

Tenacious Defense: I like it…a really cool idea to have it apply to the whole team while in IB…I have my own problem with this skill not working with 1 HP builds tho. Lately, I’ve only ever seen it used for Snowshoe cheese…I’d rather GBX redesign/fix that part first before this change.

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I don’t mind the love service things but think bl exec team are making a mistake by removing access to the content after the event is over. There’s physically nothing in the game preventing it.

Also, yeah, D&D will always influence games like this and I think they’re better when they lean into that. Hence all the paladin references above.

First, thanks for the feedback. I think you’re probably right. I my point wasn’t as much to encourage a behavior as it was to ensure that none of the suggestions discouraged it.

That said, thanks, this suggestion was my favorite. It has a cool idea of like adding indirect health to the whole team and giving 1hp builds a reason to use them. I like your ideas too on some of them. Honestly, I just really wanna feel like there aren’t only a few ways to build the SoR tree and currently that’s the case. Anything is an improvement for some of those points

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I like the suggested theme, it reminds me of Aurelia’s co-op skill tree in the Presequel, and seeing as the SoR tree needs something to spruce it up a bit, having an element that benefits co-op play is probably a more sensible move to make overall. However, I don’t think 80-100% of all skills in one tree need a co-op element. If anything, I’d say one co-op skill per tier is enough, with the capstone being a question mark. I think also with suggestions in general, it’s best to retain the original theme of what each skill is aiming for instead of radical transformations to the point where they’re completely unrecognisable from their past form. All that’s necessary is just to make smaller alterations so that they increase the value of the skills plus synergy with other skills.

So skills like FCoWA, Drowning in Brass and Selfless Vengeance already have that co-op element so the first three tiers are covered. All I’ll add is that if SV is going to demand that Moze activates it by reloading which is anti-synergistic with the majority of her skills, then at least give her bonus reload speed to go along with it.

The weird thing about BtIC (how it is currently) is that in isolation, the bonuses aren’t THAT terrible as some make them out to be; it’s actually a decent skill if you’re using something like the Stop Gap or Old God. What makes it a 1-star rating in the skill analysis thread, is more down to so many external factors that negate it, such as the skills that prioritise shield capacity, the DPS skills that compete for your skill points, and the fact that the most popular shields of choice such as the BBB, Transformer and Re-Charger, all have unique (and superior) ways of recharging themselves, so that you don’t have to concern yourself with reducing delay or increasing rate.

With that in mind, I agree that BtIC should have something extra such as a co-op element, but it needs to offer something despite the lack of synergy with other skills focused on shield capacity. My take on it would be this: make the bonuses apply to the whole team, but for each player present in a team, Moze gets more bonuses. It would serve more as a strength-in-numbers type of skill and in a 4-player team, a few shields might recharge almost as fast as the Band of Sitorak.

Honestly, I don’t think Desperate Measures needs to have a co-op element. I’d just give the tier 4 honours to Behind the Iron Curtain as it needs a buff more than DM does. Having said that, DM is one of the skills guilty of overloading the SoR tree with gun damage and in a meta where consecutive hits anointment is pretty much one of the top 3 for Moze if not the best one, DM is not the high-risk, high-reward skill that it’s meant to be. More like high-risk, scant reward, even if you go for a total 1hp Bloodletter build. Just convert the gun damage bonus into V1 damage and not only does the skill benefit, but so too do Bloodletter builds and related skills with synergy. Instead of being conscripted into running 1hp to justify choosing DM, you get a lot more flexibility with Thin Red Line (and Selfless Vengeance too) because any slither of missing health means activating a different multiplier in the damage formula.

As a co-op skill, I think this would work very well. FF is a bad joke of a skill in its current iteration.

It seems like Gearbox might be reviewing this capstone based on someone recently sending a support ticket and getting an actual response from them on the topic. If they do something, I would be more inclined to say wait and see what they do with it first. I’ve always thought that TD should have a form of V2 bonus damage, something like 30% bonus damage for enemies with more than 30% health remaining for example. If the capstone was altered for co-op play, perhaps allow the V2 bonus damage to be applicable by any source, including co-op buddies.

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I LOVE the input you added. Obviously neither of us are devs. I wrote this suggestion while walking my dog around my apartment complex tbh lol.

The idea of posts like this is more hoping that the people paid to come up with changes will see it and get an idea for things the community likes. If I make 6 suggested changes and the community confirms them, like you did the the FF skill, maybe they consider updating it. They’re clearly tinkering with ideas, like adding time to SV in the last patch, so I know it’s on someone’s mind.

Thanks for the ideas in any case. I could imagine it being kinda silly to have a million coop skills instead of just one per tier.