Nihilism - Is it OP?

When they changed this helix I knew this would be broken as hell, which is why I’ve stayed away from using it. Also I just hate the fact you don’t really have to place it strategically, making Orendi appear completely skill-less, just like Pillarstorm used to do (RIP Pillarstorm).

After playing against an Orendi who used Nihilism, I decided to finally make a thread about it since I wanted to see what others thought. I’m gonna use a few numbers I found from testing in the dojo, but numbers are weird in this game so feel free to correct me if you think I’m wrong. All numbers will be at level 10, and will not include the level 4 DOT, just the impact.

Base Damage to Minions - 437
Base Damage to Battleborn (I should test this against a player but it’s late and I wanna get this out) - 437/1.15= 380
Level 7 Helix - 3801.15 = 437
With basic skill damage gear - 437
1.091 = 477

So at level 10, Shadowfire Pillar’s impact damage with Nihilism deals 477 damage (again I will probably test this tomorrow).

The DOT ticks for 60*1.15(level 7)*1.091(gear) = 75 damage per 0.5 seconds, totalling 225 over 1.5 seconds. Likelihood is you will hit at least 1 or 2 ticks. Adding this up you get:

1 tick - 75+477 = 552
2 ticks - 150+477 = 627
3 ticks - 225+477 = 702

The DOT’s damage is not effected by levels and is only increased by gear and the helix. The impact damage does change through levels, decreasing by 10 per level after helices and gear (467 at level 9 etc).

So that’s the numbers done I think (as I said, feel free to correct me if you think I’m wrong, and I will probably do more testing tomorrow). From now on I will go on the basis that you will hit just 1 tick of the dot, with the damage being 552.

552 is quite a lot of damage. It’s not insane, but here’s the reason I think Nihilism is broken…

YOU CAN’T MISS THE DAMN THING!

Being able to deal 552 (practically) unmissable and even worse, UNDODGEABLE damage is absolutely ridiculous. You can’t dodge something that hits instantly. The only time you won’t take damage from it is if the Orendi misses, but it’s really not difficult to place a Shadowfire Pillar on someone.

The thing I love about Shadowfire Pillar is the beautiful art of placement, but Nihilism removes any need to think and predict. I hate the fact that she becomes skill-less, it’s the reason I pushed so hard for the Pillarstorm nerf (even though GBX kinda overdid it :joy:)

On the other side of it, it takes skill to dodge a Shadowfire Pillar, but with Nihilism this is practically impossible to do.

Nihilism is even worse combined with her left level 5 helix. This makes Orendi able to do a normal Pillar, Nulify, then 3 seconds later cast an instant Pillar. It also hurts a hell of a lot more with Legendary gear, but those are icky :stuck_out_tongue:

I could probably go on some more but I need to sleep, so I will conclude below.

It really hurts me to see players take this helix, especially players I know who are highly-skilled. They don’t need this stupid instant pillar ■■■■, they’re good enough to be able to hit them normally.

I think it’s the most broken helix in the game. What do you guys think about it?

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Hmmm don’t think I’ve ran into an Orendi that takes this yet.

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I don’t find it’s worth it to lose Preamble. With Nihilism you reduce your chance of damaging multiple targets and lose damage potential. Even if you choose Encore you’ll probably throw yourself off dealing with the difference in delay crammed into that 5 second window. You also arguably lose the small confusion and enemy scatter effect that pillars can cause.

I’m better off with the delay because it allows me to aim ahead, and enemies will often back into the pillar or not see it coming if I’m peppering them with Chaos Bolts. With Nihilism you’d better hit your shot the first time.

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I think it’s pretty strong but not OP. I’ve had instances where I’m minding my own business at about half health or something and instantly die and wonder wtf? Then I see Orendi as the killer and killed me with a Pillar and all I can say is “…You sneaky ■■■■”

As an opponent it means you have to get used to not always having a warning on when you’re going to get pillar’d. As Orendi you need to get used to not having a delay on some Pillars while a delay on other pillars.

It can get crazy since Nihilism greatly increases Orendi’s burst potential when used by a capable/good Orendi.

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You don’t lose Preamble, the DOT just comes after the instant impact. I agree with you I do still prefer having a higher damage skill which I’m comfortable hitting.

My biggest problem is this:[quote=“Rabid_Explosions, post:4, topic:1590145”]
As an opponent it means you have to get used to not always having a warning on when you’re going to get pillar’d.
[/quote]

I don’t think it’s fair for the enemy to not be able to dodge/avoid the pillar. Is there any other skill in the game which is not possible to dodge? I think it makes Orendi skill-less and makes any skill the opponent has become useless!

3 Likes

I’m not sure if it’s OP but I do think it’s bullsh*t. Pair this up with Lorrian Skill Spike + stacked skill damage and see how much fun it is to play any squishy character against this. This set up goes against any kind of skillful play. Unmissable pillars and RNG dmg boost.

Orendi was already one of the strongest characters in the game, I don’t understand why they made these changes to her. “Oh, Let’s Bounce made her too strong. Let’s give her an undodgeable nuke instead”

grumble grumble… :rage:

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Maybe OP wasn’t the right word to use, but the general jist is that it’s kinda stupid right? :stuck_out_tongue:

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This alone pretty sums up my view…

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Orendi was grinning when they pulled Mellka’s wings off.

Seriously, you could pause as Orendi for 2 seconds in each battle and still be OP.

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Guess I’ll have to try Nihilism because I don’t see how that would work. I thought the point of Preamble was that it came before the impact, hence the name. I’ll try to play around with it a bit and get back to you with some fresh thoughts.

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Injection, Blight, maybe volley, Temporal Distortion are all I can think of with effectively no warning that can only be dodged because of the caster missing

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Tested in dojo just now. Can confirm. Preamble hands for 3 ticks with instant pillar

I made a typo but I’m keeping it

Post script: I did an Orendi again in dojo and Nihilism only counts for one of the two pillars from encore. If pillar is casted before Nihilism, and you cast Nihilism, the reduced damage encore will receive the instant cast. But it will not if a regular pillar was cast after Nihilism. Forgive me if this was stated in this thread already.

I mentioned I felt Nihilism and Encore might throw off your timing in the heat of battle.

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If you’re close enough to most things in Battleborn, it is almost impossible to dodge them. So I’d discount skills like Injection. But it does have as short charge time and audio cue before it lands. And I think you should look at Nihilism as the ability to instantly land the entirety of a skill, so something like Blight doesn’t count, since you still have to stand in it for 4 seconds to get the full affect.

The only other skill that can do that is Ice Wall… if you root an enemy with it for all 7 seconds. Even then, if they destroy the wall it doesn’t count.

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Has an aoe indicator and a timer before it’s slow (and possible damage) actually begin. If it’s cast on top of you, you still have time to leave it’s area before it activates.

While I think it is dumb It is needed currently to keep orendi competitive. It allows orendi to compete with more agile comps. if this was also taken away on top of the current state of pillarstorm she would be a really lackluster character. Her damage is already capped by how fast her cooldowns are. In terms of the current character lineup if orendi took anymore hits from the nerf hammer I would just play other characters. The are just more consistent characters in the meta.

Orendi doesn’t need Nihlism to be competitive. She didn’t need pillarstorm either.

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Honestly I would just play thorn if she took a hit. there would be better characters to play.

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I’d say Bola Snare due to its extremely high velocity you’re pretty much entirely reliant on the caster missing. There’s also a few ults if we’re counting those such as Wrath of the Wild which are also largely reliant on the caster missing which is pretty difficult given the ridiculous radius of that thing.

I wouldn’t really count AoE skills like Blight because you can at least get out of them after they land to prevent taking most of the damage. Essentially the comparison between Nihilism and Blight would be if Blight had a helix that instantly dealt the entirety of the damage, which I think we could all agree would be disgustingly overpowered. Temporal Distortion doesn’t even cast immediately and avoiding a Pendles skill, like any other melee based skill really, is just a matter of detecting him so I wouldn’t really count that either.

[quote=“reliikki, post:6, topic:1590145”]
Pair this up with Lorrian Skill Spike + stacked skill damage and see how much fun it is to play any squishy character against this
[/quote]The Skill Spike, and especially the way it interacts with Orendi, is something that has long needed to be looked at. Voxis Core among others fall into that category as well. That said, we shouldn’t look to penalize characters for especially strong interactions with gear, we should look to penalize the gear.

Not really though. I have tons of success with Orendi, against good players, without taking that helix. This reminds me of when somebody said Orendi was dead because they nerfed Firmware. She didn’t need that to be successful, she doesn’t need this helix, and she definitely didn’t need pillarstorm. She’s very effective without those crutches.

Thorn should be next in line for some nerfs tbh. Her bleed damage and her ult need to be looked at.

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But there is a long charge time, a travel time, a visual cue, and a global audio cue with WotW. Giving you plenty of time to interrupt it with hard CC, run/use a mobility skill to get around a corner, reflect it with ISIC’s wards, go underground if Galilea can dodge it, activate Sublimate’s immunity, self heal as Alani/Reyna, pop Beatrix/Montana’s damage reduction, use your physical shield as Boldur, etc…

Which is very different from Nihilism.

2 Likes