Noticed something

If you are a Benedict, Whiskey Foxtrot, Marquis, Toby…

In Incursion or Meltdown

And you don’t really “push”

You just sit back, use cover, and snipe and rush in on the player who has very low health.

Your kill ratios are huge!

But does it help the overall team?

You could put Oscar Mike in there as well but he’s a pusher and if he is doing his job will be far more exposed. But yeah…I stayed back as an OM…Killed minions from afar…built stuff and constantly ran around gathering shards…Killing minions with the AR and saving the grenade for an enemy with low health or a bad situation…

Popping in and out…moving around and basically staying OUT of the lane.

And I had an 8-1 kill ratio AND MY TEAM LOST.

I have noticed those characters always seem to have the best/highest kill/death ratio but yet I wonder how much they are actually HELPING.

Kills help…sure…understand…but in those two types of maps…the push is everything. And I know they don’t have the defense to just wade in but sitting 100 yards from the fray while the melee guys, support and healers are dying like flys…

Well…seems…not right. LOL

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They are reworking the score,for this kinds of reasons,like a lot of things…
But they know it and said it’s coming.

Part of it is the difference between how different genres track the effectiveness of a player.

Twitch FPSs (which Battleborn most definitely is not) emphasize K:D ratios because players die really fast; K:D is basically a representation of how often you make an error.

MOBAs (which Battleborn is) emphasize progress towards a goal. It doesn’t matter how many player kills you get if none of them help take the objective.

The thing is that Battleborn is a MOBA that, on the surface, is also an FPS; a majority of popular FPSs happen to be twitch-FPSs. Because of this, many people bring that twitch-FPS mentality into the game, either by habit or accident, because the game is an FPS and their default mentality for an FPS is to treat it like a twitch-FPS, even though it actively inhibits their contribution potential.

On those rare occasions where I PvP, I generally have the most deaths and only a middling number of player kills (a reasonably high number of assists though, because I primarily play Alani) but I will have done more than anyone else on my team to contribute to the success of the group as a whole by playing for the objective (and often doing unpopular things like playing defense, protecting/blocking a lane, or harassing other players without trying to kill them to prevent them from contributing).

It’s just a mentality thing. The game looks like a twitch-FPS, so that’s what people go into it thinking. It plays like a MOBA, however, so that’s what people who keep playing start to learn and adjust to. I expect that most of the K:D obsessed players are either solo players (who are often concerned with being the “best” on their team in addition to winning; they think that by having a high K:D they’re helping more and being the best) or newbies (who haven’t yet learned it’s not a twitch-FPS).

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How you going to stand in lane as Toby tho. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I play Whiskey mostly in the back, but I do sport 60-120 minion kills on average. Depends a lot on enemy team comp and match length. If there are a lot of melees when I’m playing ranged I can’t be in a situation where I am easily flanked. If there is a sniper I can’t stand in lane either.
And you really need to look at character roles when looking at stats. You can’t expect a ranged character to play in melee range 100% of the time. And Do you really expect an assassin to be a strong pusher? I mean sure they can be if played that way… But you should get a skirmisher like Orendi or OM for that. A tank for the 250 point mark. A support to keep the skirmishers in the lanes for as long as possible. Assassins will target players and get a lot of player kills so that the skirmishers can take out minions and work on objectives without being constantly interrupted.

Though I do agree that people pay a little too much attention on K/D. And it’s definitely because of the Twitch FPS background of most people. I still feel like I’m doing bad if I have more than 3 deaths :stuck_out_tongue:

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ranged is very OP in this game because of their ability to engage in combat from afar, also their ability to reach safe spots faster and healing spots faster.

i think my very first game ever as oscar mike i had 30 kills and 2 deaths

just doing like u said…

stay back, kill minions… lob grenades out at choke points / crowded areas and get easy easy kills.

yet people think rath is OP, lol!

when i play ranged I just casually sit back, destroy minions with total ease… then once the minions are down you can creep up if it looks safe, grab some easy kills.

sure this doesnt work allllll the time, youre bound to fight a better team sooner or later… but from my experience ranged is way more effective than melee at pushing/defending

if rath wants to clear or push he is in danger no matter what… yet oscar mike can sit 50 yards back, lob a grenade on the minions and BAM… theyre insta dead.

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I feel you, John. I got bitched at once for not having any kills as Marquis even though I only had 2 deaths and 9 assists. I also took a few shots at the enemy sentry before I was run out of the tunnel. That’s why I usually play a tank (Monty or ISIC) or some type of support, like Foxtrot and Mike. As @Kitru said, it seems a lot of people come into BB thinking it’s a team deathmatch game like Battlefield and Call of Duty, where it’s more like League of Legends and Defense of the Ancients, in that the important thing is to complete the objective, not make the most kills. For me, as long as my kills and assists are higher than my deaths, I feel like I made a contribution to the team. I also build a lot of stuff, destroy what I can, and gather shards and thralls whenever my team is making a push or we need some backup to prevent an enemy push. I also run back to our sentry if it’s being attacked and I can do so without dying.

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Oh, the number of times I’ve shouted “Kill the chuffing minions!” at the screen while witnessing my teammates chase down kills…

There’s so many reasons for this, though. From lore challenges, to titles awarded for kill counts, to the score system in the game, it’s hard not to get drawn into deathmatch behaviour.

Still, much of this is being addressed (apparently) so perhaps there is hope :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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I agree with what John is saying in the OP, you have to be able to hold and push the line. If you have 3 players standing back and sniping often the enemy is pushing you back instead of you pushing. Also if you are too far back you are only using your basic attack and not your skills.

You can inflate your stats by hanging back in a safe spot, kill lots of minions, get player kills and few deaths but if you don’t push you don’t win.

He wasn’t talking about the score as much as helping your team

It does to a point because of leveling, you get a lot of XP from player kills and if a team really starts to outlevel the other its hard to come back. So KD does matter quite a bit.[quote=“reliikki, post:4, topic:1539845”]
How you going to stand in lane as Toby tho. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I play Whiskey mostly in the back, but I do sport 60-120 minion kills on average. Depends a lot on enemy team comp and match length. If there are a lot of melees when I’m playing ranged I can’t be in a situation where I am easily flanked. If there is a sniper I can’t stand in lane either.
[/quote]

One player as a stand backish sniper is ok 3 is not is kind of the point.

Whisky to me is a bad choice to focus minions because he isn’t a great AOE character like thorn, mike, orendi, etc… Minions come in waves and if you can time your AOE to be ready for them thats all you really need. Thorn can kill more minions than WF without even focusing on them. So if you are Whiskey and focusing minions you are putting in too much effort on them. I’ve seen WF’s do the minion focus and while they got 60-100 low death and a few player kills, like John said in the OP were they really helping the team? Because they put in too much effort in minions and almost none on players the answer is often no.

If you are going to focus on minions you should be a player that excels at dealing with them with minimum effort, again like Thorn, OM, Orendi. Kelvin can do it early game to stack health. There are others as well.

To me its a about a blance of KD, Building, Minions, etc… Certain Characters its more about one thing, like Marquis should not be focusing minions but almost always players or sentries if incursion. But most of them should have a good balance of both.

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That’s exactly what I was saying, though. It seemed to me OP was expecting an assasin like WF to always top objective, which in Meltdown happens to be minions.

I think focusing on it can be helpful, but it depends on the team makeup (both player and character). If you are disrupting the enemy team, making it difficult for them to get minion kills, and letting your own team get minions, shards, etc, it can help a lot. But if everyone is busy playing deathmatch, I good team will end up beating you by focusing more on the objective.

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It’s because those characters don’t really have a choice besides Whiskey when he gets 6 or so.

What’s even worse is when your team isn’t in control those characters can’t even go for the kills. You are just stuck trying to take single thrall and sneak doubles.

Never the less they get picked because their damage spikes when they do hit are huge.

When I play Toby or Whiskey I am not playing to push the lane. I use Toby to hold the lane. To control the area so my team can push. I harass the enemy team with fire and deny them access to the lane so that my team can enter and hold the lane and then push with the minion wave. I also help clear the enemy minion waves and try to do damage when I can. I focus on the large targets like the Thrall and Elite Minions. I’m not trying to push the lane when I play Toby. I don’t think he was designed for it at all.

With Whiskey I use him to harass the enemy team. I’m not there to clean out minion waves. I focus on the enemy and try to drive them back. I can help with a push by focusing on the enemy team and keeping them off my teammates. I’m either helping as part of the push itself or from a little farther back depending on who is on my team and who is on the enemy team. I try to kill off enemies that are low on health or try to get them low on health so my team can finish them off. I try to focus on the Thrall when they show up as I can take them down really fast with good crits. It can be frustrating when I am the person on the team with the most minion kills when I play as Whiskey. I’m not supposed to be the one focusing on the minions, but when my team ignores them someone has to do it.

I don’t play Marquis or Benedict much and have a lot less experience with them. When I do play them I try to play according to their roles. Overall I try to select my character according to what the team needs, or if I am picking first I will select them because I feel like playing a certain role on the team that match and then try to play to that role with the best of my ability. It’s frustrating when I pick a role and then am unable to fulfill that role because the enemy team and/or my own team deny me that.

Anyway, when I play I try to play to the objectives and everything I do is working towards those objectives. If I get kills it is because I am trying to achieve one of those objectives or help the team. Sure, sometimes I forget and I chase a little too far and pay the price for it. I’ll try to move with the minion waves when we get Thrall and/or Elite Minions and help the push. I’ll try and drive the enemy back into their own base. I’ll try and clear the lane of enemies, minions, turrets and the likes so my team can push.

Sometimes I forget all of this because someone on the other team decided to be a dick and so I may at times go out of my way to take them down. I try not to let people get under my skin but it happens. More than I’d like. At any rate this is just how I play. There are a lot of others who seem to be focused a lot on the kills and don’t help the objectives at all. It’s a bit frustrating when you are teamed with players like that but there is not much you can do about that other than try your best.

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No…I understand the limitations…trust me…when I try to play Oscar Mike with my nose in too deep… I die a lot…a real lot.

But you have to accept balance based on the characters chosen and more often than not, I don’t see a lot of players doing that in random play. Sacrificing their individual stats for the team. There are times, based on the composition of the team that I simply HAVE to take more chances and stick my nose into the fray. But what I see is players taking a look at the team makeup from the git go…and making a decision right thern to just hang back and build a kill ratio rather than risk for team victory. “Well, this is going to be quick.” or something like that.

And I tend to see it a lot from folks playing the above characters, OM included.

Or healers who think they are more of a combatant.

I will say this…in all the games I have played, (for the most part) the healers are the MOST concerned about team play.

Every now and then you get an Alani who thinks they are a combatant first but I attribute that to how strong that character was when introduced.

But…bottom line…in Incursion and Meltdown…Kill ratios actually mean VERY little…unless the other team is getting out leveled by them

Yeah,and the score being as is,lead to this kind of problem exactly.
The score emphasizes more on kill than on objective,for w/e reasons GBX thought at first.
It has been discussed,they know this issue and redoing the score is part of the solution.

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In my experience, it seems to pay to be more aggressive in pvp game modes - teams that don’t hammer the objectives early often don’t seem to get a chance to make up for lost time later.

PVP modes do tend to be push or fail affairs, and it often seems teams that are too cautious just get bottled up and steadily forced back. As long as whatever you are doing helps push or makes it possible for the rest of the team to push, it’s probably worthwhile.

I just want to emphasize, when I say push, I mean making progress toward the map objectives. If the opposing team decides they care more about killing players than playing the map, but our minions are still getting to where they need to go, we still win no matter what personal metric a given opposing player may be aiming for.

I’ve noticed this as well. I’ve been on several teams that huddle up in base next to the sentry and don’t push the objectives hard enough and it’s just a slow death. I’ve been on some very aggressive teams as well. So many ways to play the game.

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Being a support player I actually enjoy the huddle. Once you knock down a couple of their team then you push forward. Aggressive isn’t always the best, I’ve seen many aggressive teams overextend and wipe out.

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This is where the term CAMPER came from in CoD. Players are just too scared to lose lives, are tactically inept, and no idea about OBJECTIVE game play. They will sit back and think they can win by defending your sentry.

Any melee class on the team then gets hammered due to lack of support, and the opposition rank up very quick, get ultimates and then blow your team off the map.

The variation in players is incredible in Battleborn, and it’s rare I ever get on a team where people click and play the way they should. I’ve stood at the healing station (after retreating) and watched our sentry get blown to pieces by 2 Thrall, 1 MX bot, and the player who made me retreat. Our team was down the other end of the map and had no idea, even with me spamming the marker for help. They returned just after the explosion.

And don’t mention the shard hunters who aren’t there whist the enemy is attacking the sentry…

Oh. Oh dear. No. @DaRTH_FuRioN no.
Camper has been around well before cod and doesn’t actually mean that. It’s someone who kills people at their spawn points. Not for being afraid to die http://www.google.com/search?q=definition+camper+video+games&oq=def&aqs=chrome.0.35i39j69i65j69i57j0l2j69i60.1319j0j4&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

They should boost minion and thrall bas xp value and award better for damaging but not landing final blow on minions… Scoring here should also include buildables built and destroyed, thralls captured and enemy thralls stopped (With deductions forr thrall damage to sentry)… But what about the spectator?