Oddly, weapon scaling in Arm's Race seems good

Playing Arms’ Race at Mayhem 11 and virtually all weapons seem more or less useful.

This seems like a good start to maybe making all weapons useful in the regular game?

hint hint

Has anyone done any math/numbers testing to figure out how the scaling in Arms Race is different? I assume that this is because the enemy health and shield values scale at a different rate, but I have no idea what those rates are.

Does anyone know or understand how Arms Race scaling works?

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There’s many problems in the main game :wink:

On top of that the legendary weapons are so OP and unbalanced that other rarities are useless by default

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So, “weapon scaling in Arm’s Race seems good” ?

Well, it’s easy to balance things once everything (Skills and passives, Guardian ranks and perks, Legendaries) has been thrown out the window.

I’d say “enemy health and resistance” is conveniently scaled in Arms race. We can agree on that.
If you could use your actual gear (with selected optimal COM, anoints, etc.), you probably would not say “weapons scaling” is fine there. If skills and GR were enabled there, you would probably not say general damage scaling is fine there.

So, no, probably not a good starting point to scale the main game, unless you expect the same simplification by null and void effects everywhere else.

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Arms race and the fact that many people including myself think that weapons “feel good” in there is the proof that the main game has way too many modifiers to damage.
Too many anointments that straight up double or triple damage under certain circumstances create a gameplay where no matter what enemy you have in front of you, you just unload your weapons against it and it explodes in 0.5 second.
Shielded, armored, big, small, badass, beast, humanoid, robot,elemental resistant, weak points that are hard to shoot at? Doesn’t matter! Activate everything, shoot, dead.

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Thanks for the thoughts.
I keep hoping for the ‘magic’ solution. :sunglasses:

I think this is the crux of it. In the regular game, we all have legendaries that make the other stuff obsolete. This is present in Arms Race as well, it’s just that we don’t have the leggos.
For all we know, the main game’s normal drops are balanced compared to each other as well. Nobody cares though, because we are playing with legendaries, and are affected by the balance of those.

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Nothing to add, just wholeheartedly agree and think this needs more attention.

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I am not sure that I agree with this analysis. In a Mayhem 10 Arms Race run, you can find a Sleeping Giant and completely wreck almost all enemies with it. This is the same Sleeping Giant that barely tickles Mayhem 10 enemies in the base game even with skills and gear - it’s not like they are two different weapons. There has to be some sort of modified enemy health, shields, and armor scaling that applies only to Arms Race. Or some other modified scaling at work.

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I think both of you are correct: I believe someone mentioned before that scaling in Arms Race is different from the main game (mostly via enemy HP at a given level, I presume).

But, there is something to be said about most BL3 enthusiasts not being that much familiar with how white, green, and may be even blue guns feel. Not a lot of reasons to use these in main game with the drop rates as they are, unless you are dabbling in allegiance runs - these can make you really excited even about green gun. Or Woodblocker. :wink:

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If you get a Legendary from the start you can faceroll the Arms Race too. The balance of BL3 is not really bad until you complete the campaign and turn on the Mayhem modifiers.

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Well yeah, the Sleeping Giant feels good in arms race, but if it did that in the main game, first of all, it would be boringly easy (imo), and second of all, the real question is: how much better (or worse) is the Sleeping Giant than, say, a Shredifier? Or a purple quasar SMG?

Let’s say they do actually modify enemy health. There still be legendaries better than others, and legendaries weaker than others, and we’re back at square one: gradual balance patches that tweak indivdiual legendaries.

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cant say anytzhing rly about arms race but here is how you could do it if the arms race balancing is better
make it normal games balance NERF EVERYTHING THATS OP RIGHT NOW
and with this you drag down the 10% of stuff that works to the 90% that dont work

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@Feculator Maybe we are talking around 2 different things here. I definitely am not saying that Arms Race scaling should be the same as the base game; in fact, I don’t think it should be and I don’t even think that would make sense, given that there are no skills, GR, or gear in Arms Race. However, what I am saying is that perhaps they could take a page from whatever they did with enemy health scaling in the context of Arms Race (because Arms Race enemy health, shields, and armor scaling clearly is NOT the same across Mayhem levels as it is in the base game), and then reconsider how to adjust the ratios of weapon/gear damage values, enemy heath, shields, and armor values, and anointment values to make the game feel like there are more than 10 usable weapons on Mayhem 10/11.

I also agree with what you said about adjusting the damage values of specific legendaries. GBX absolutely needs to adjust the scaling of pretty much all the weapons in the game. The problem that GBX has created with the way they have buffed and nerfed gear is actually mind-boggling to me. Specifically, the fact that GBX has chosen to take a mostly ad hoc approach to buffing and nerfing weapons is really silly and short-sighted.

If GBX was going to “readjust” weapon damage values, they should have done this across the board for all weapons (or weapon classes - however you might choose to approach it) , and then walked back or increased the values on the ones that were overbuffed or underbuffed, as opposed to the approach they actually took, which was picking individual weapons and buffing the holy bejeezus out of certain ones and completely ignoring certain other ones. GBX’s approach to weapon balance appears to consist primarily of picking a number and a weapon out of thin air, and then slapping that number on the weapon as a multiplier to damage. It would have been much easier to manage the exceptions for weapons that were over- or under-buffed, as opposed to buffing/nerfing weapons on a case-by-case basis.

Basically, the method/process GBX chose to use as far as selecting which weapons to buff/nerf/“adjust,” appears to be basically spitballing. Not a great process for ensuring a balanced game.

The point is that GBX appears to have been able to solve the Mayhem scaling issue for Arms Race, but at the same time appears to be completely incapable (or uninterested - not sure which LOL) of achieving the same result for the base game. I just don’t understand why they can’t seem to figure out the Mayhem scaling problem in the context of the base game, which is really the only context in which it matters.

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Exactly.

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perfectly expressed!

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And this too! Nice.

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Did some quick and dirty tests but I’d ballpark Arms Race M10 scaling around 3-6x enemy health. M10 weapon scaling is 2.36x, or basically the entirety of Arms Race’s Mayhem scaling is about the difference between Mayhem 0 and Mayhem 1.

It might be that to fix the main game it would be a balance adjustment so large that it just clashes with their vision, or maybe would cause other balance issues from how strong the vault hunters are on their own.

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@jafortune That’s good lookin’ out. I play console and doing numbers is tough for me just because I cannot capture it very well in photo mode. But I will say that what you said feels . . . about right? On Mayhem 10 Arms Race, the various weapons’ effectiveness remind me of about the way I remember a lot of them being back in the old days post release Mayhem 2 or 3.

So if that is the case, then the VHs should be proportionally way, way more powerful, right? Even without the skills. This explains why such a wider variety of weapons “feel” better in Arms Race. The reason/explanation, just so I am clear, is because - assuming what you have said above is correct, which it seems reasonable enough in my experience - the VHs get Mayhem 10 (or whatever Mayhem level) weapons as drops in Arms Race, but the enemies are essentially many levels’ worth of Mayhem scaling below you. So essentially the VH is overleveled in terms of gear, vs. the enemies.

Does that make sense?

What even the guardian rank is disabled in this mode? WTF?