Oh... that's disappointing. (dlc4 spoiler)

So, just started the Sapphire area, Krieg makes the line ‘I know she’s gone, but it feels like she’s still here’.

If that means that he knows she’s dead, that’s pretty disappointing. Was really hoping for some kind of confrontation between him and Ava, or at least have her be the one to break it to him and actually accept the blame.

Welp, I’ll keep going from here, maybe the rest of the dlc has something. Kinda disappointing that something that would affect him that much would happen off-screen, but hopefully I’m wrong.


Agreed. He us supposed to be in a cave somewhere. How did he become aware that she was dead. I guess it happens off screen somewhere. A lost opportunity for story development


I’m so tired of people blaming the 14 year old for Maya’s death. Kriegs rational mind isn’t pissed at Ava because Maya wouldn’t be. Maya knew Ava was headstrong and stubborn, much like Maya was at her age. Also Maya wisely realized she’s a child who didn’t really understand the risks, which is why she pulled her aside, while the player characters went into the vault, so she could teach her. It sucks that Ava had to end up learning that lesson the hard way, but it’s not her fault Troy killed Maya. Everyone who’s pissed at Ava for Maya’s death has no faith in Maya. Maya, knowing the risks involved, still decided to take on an apprentice she knew was likely to disobey her, because she likes Ava.

Everyone who’s upset that krieg isn’t more pissed at Ava, wasn’t paying attention to the ■■■■ that was going on in krieg’s head. Krieg is mourning Maya, but he’s been kinda busy fighting himself to actually get his ass out of some cave on pandora. Krieg has PTSD, paranoia, depression, and on top of that his mind has split and formed a new personality, who he is wrestling for control of his own meat suit. But yeah keep wishing he was angry at the 14 year old like that’s more important than his mental health.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as an ■■■■■■■. But just because you don’t agree with the actions of a character doesn’t make it poorly written. It’s fine to be disappointed but don’t expect the characters to change, Krieg is going to like Ava because she’s a bit like Maya. So maybe just stop expecting people to be angry at the child, and get on board with forgiveness, Maya would.


Talk to Maya after you finish the mission until you exhaust her voice lines for more closure and connected threads. Also get every single echo in the area. It all builds lore.

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I’m going to speak for myself here. But regarding Ava, I dislike her not only because she didn’t take responsibility for her part in Maya’s death (I don’t blame her but I think there should have been some remorse from her…but she instead blames everyone else and gains everything).

Can’t change what’s been done and that’s fine. But I would have loved it if Ava got some content in this DLC. She is a child - as was Tina - so seeing some fragility from her would have helped. And having Kreig understand that fear - of not being to control themself and accidentally hurting innocent people, of Maya being the only one that understood them - would have been a good middle ground for them.

But instead, it WAS addressed but not handled well. Which is really unfortunate because I want Ava to improve and become a character I care about.

But instead, she stayed : “it’s everyones fault, I have this awesome power and I’m the greatest” kind of vibe which unfortunately irritates a lot of people.


Spacebubbles covers it nicely.

I would be okay with it being partially her fault. Okay with her actions up until maya’s death if she just showed one damned bit of remorse or acknowledgement. Instead, she blames everyone else, and goes Mary Sue deluxe.
It’s not so much that she caused Maya’s death indirectly or in part. It’s the way she reacted and how the character was handled. It feels like Maya was literally consumed so that someone’s unlikable Mary Sue can get a power boost.

Literally no one reacted in what could be considered a normal way. Lilith is a stone statue, they tried to play off some jokes through Tannis, and then Ava blamed everyone else.
The last part I could have forgiven if it was addressed by anyone at any point, but everyone is pretending that she had nothing to do with it.


Done, was kinda nice, but doesn’t fix the issue.

You don’t get to define how people grieve. Lilith was frozen, terrified that she had failed as a leader, one of her sisters has died on her watch. Tanis was awkward, that’s her character, she was tortured chewed up and spit out by pandora she doesn’t know how to deal with emotions. Ava, a child, was angry that her mentor is dead so she lashed out. What makes you think that anger is directed at everyone but herself. The person she’s most angry with is herself that’s why she stormed off. The people in the borderlands universe are all broken in one way or another, just like people in real life! The thing that makes the vault hunters heroes is that they are willing to forgive those who ask for it Ava reacted poorly to the death of her mentor. Show me a kid who acts “better” when their role model dies and I’ll show you a kid who didn’t grow up alone living in a sewer. She’s not someone’s mary sue just because you don’t like her.

No one is pretending she had nothing to do with it. She knows what she did and they see that she’s not in control of her emotions. She yells at Lilith and blames her but then she runs away to be alone and the vault hunter goes to talk to her. Just because she doesn’t explicitly say it doesn’t mean she doesn’t regret it. Were you never a teenager? Did you not have mood swings and say something you didn’t mean? So why is it that you think her reaction is poorly written. Everyone on the ship understands that teenagers have mood swings that’s why they didn’t get upset with her when she yells at Lilith.

You want the kid who grew up never letting her guard down because she was alone in the world to show fragility. Easier said than done, but she impressively does show some if you go talk to her in private. The reason they made a side quest where someone reads her diary is because she’s been hurt so much she can’t open up. Listen to her desperate attempts to cover up her true feelings in that quest. She’s a sad scared little girl that is trying hard to pretend she’s not, and she’s not even good at covering it up.

Also yeah she’s annoying but every vault hunter is on the fringe of society for one reason or another. Hell tina never shuts up, brick is dumb as hell, krieg babbles nonsense, Maya did whatever she wanted and damn anyone who got in her way. Let alone the fact that every vault hunter has the same cocky attitude when you play as them. Half of the voice lines for killing an enemy are characters talking about how great they are. She’s just doing what her role models are doing.

Again you’re entitled to your opinion but that doesn’t make it a poorly written character. Ava will become better but a dlc inside Krieg’s mind isn’t really the place for it. She probably won’t get more development for a while. She’s been through some hard times. She needs a minute to collect her thoughts and internalize what she’s learned. But also other characters need space to develop as well. She isn’t the main character of borderlands 3.


Hey, even her reaction is something that could have been justified, had it not been ignored for the rest of the story.
Her involvement in Mayas death feels like it’s being downplayed or ignored. That’s the problem. There’s no point where she is introspective, honest, or confronted. She is just handed everything and keeps being a brat.

Yes, I’ve been a teenager. Yes, I’ve acted out. When I did, I’d cop flak for it. Why should Ava be immune? Because Mary Sue’s can never be allowed to be called less than perfect. She gets handed the keys to sanctuary, new siren powers, gets to lead the charge into the cathedral like she’s somehow important, then gets to act all understanding and knowledgable during the nonsensical Lilith/Elpis sequence (‘explaining’ things to Tannis, no less).


Cool so we’re just going to talk in circles because you want some kind of punishment and that’s not going to happen. None of the vault hunters are like your parents, apparently. They aren’t into punishing a kid after she watches someone muder the only person who was ever kind to her. As if no one on sanctuary has anything better to do than yell at this poor child for every mistake she makes.


My parents aren’t a part of it :stuck_out_tongue:
She is not being treated like a child, but like a successor.

Again, she doesn’t need to be punished, I just want her, at some point, to show the slightest remorse or acknowledgment.


I think the most annoying thing about Ava is the trying too hard. "What you got door? You got nothing ’ is both hilarious and cringeworthy at the same time. She’s just a petulant teen.

And how the heck did she get down to the Rampager’s lair? Surely those on Sanctuary are complicit by letting her travel down.

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Child and successor aren’t mutually exclusive she’s both. Vault hunter’s are expressing empathy, by giving her space to grieve. She’s had all of what, a couple of days to grieve before the story ends and during that time she kinda had the psycho’s who killed Maya and we’re in the process of destroying Pandora to think about. They intentionally left the story on a cliff hanger but I don’t think she’ll get much more than this brief introduction before the next game. I could be wrong though they might tell her story with the second season of dlc.

By your own definition of Mary Sue she still is not one. If Mary Sue’s can’t be said to be less than perfect, then someone who acts like a brat and yells at Lilith for no reason can’t be a Mary Sue. Someone who is a cringy teenager by can’t be a Mary Sue. Ava isn’t a Mary Sue she’s a character who has had a hard life, and that has made her unlikeable to you and others.

You list all the things she’s been “given.” Siren powers, so you’re saying Maya was wrong to choose this girl, why? She hasn’t been given a chance to really show what she can do yet. The keys to sanctuary, that whole scene was set up so Lilith could do her corny passing the torch speech. Lilith is a superhero, they do corny speaches for kids. Children sometimes act like know it alls, look up the Dunning–Kruger effect if you would like to know why they do this.

Letting her lead the charge was actually a brilliant move. She might have been feeling alone in the world when Maya died and she lashed out. Which would be a good reason to run off to your room and be vulnerable in private. Letting her lead the charge says we love you and are here to back you up to a young girl who has only ever trusted Maya. And she did that only after Maya literally offered to take care of her, giving her a place to live, training, food, and support and asking for nothing in return. You may be able to lie with words but a gesture like letting her lead the charge to get revenge for killing her mentor, really says welcome to the family in the most borderlands way.

You want her to show remorse, she has spent her life fighting tooth and nail for everything she needs to survive, forgive her for not admitting she was wrong. It’s not quite so easy to do when you’ve been publicly humiliated for showing any sign of emotion except anger. Which she was at least once in the quest where maliwan guys mock her and read her diary. But probably was a lot more than once judging by the fact she lived in a sewer and had no way to shower. Or don’t forgive her and just continue believing she’s a poorly written character and an entitled brat but she isn’t a Mary Sue.


Honestly, I think the main takeaway should be that Krieg has enough to deal with in his own head to keep him occupied, and always has

His origin, independent of any Vault Hunter, what people wanted to know more about for years, up until BL3.

This DLC focused on delivering some of that origin first and foremost.

I have my problems with the writing of ava, but they’ve got nothing to do with her character (my first reaction to her was that i liked her a great deal, and her reactions to things did make plenty of sense considering her background.

Honestly, I wish they did more with her character overall; she’s got a lot of potential, but she could be taken out of the story entirely with completely minimal changes

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I have to disagree with your assessment here. She directed he anger at and completely blamed Lilith for what happened. In no way did I ever get the impression or feeling she was upset with herself or the part she played in what happened. She missed Maya, but showed absolutely zero remorse for her part in what happened.


Defensiveness and aggression are extremely common coping mechanisms among people who have traumatic backgrounds, especially in children/teenagers.

She’s not going to outwardly show her guilt, as it’s almost certainly been constantly reinforced in her that the only outcome of doing so is pain and punishment. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t feel it, and the vulnerability in her room shows that she’s affected enough that she can’t fully keep her walls up.

My opinion:
They made Ava the way she is, so that they have another story for a DLC. A DLC where she finally openly questions herself and her part in Mayas death and we have to help her through it.
Probably something regarding Mayas book.
Regarding her character. Growing up in a hostile environment usually goes along with walling up your emotions, aggression and manipulation.
So it does make sense, how she reacts. But it would have been better to not give a child with no character progression a shitton of power and a leading position. Or at least pull a spiderman on her and teach her that power goes along with responsibility.


Yeah, the “you’re in charge now” was a bit outta nowhere; probably should’ve put Ellie in charge, or possibly Moxxi. If they wanted her to take over, she should have been a lot more present in the story, at least with side missions


My beef with DLC 4 is , Why Maya looks like Bl3 Maya and not like Bl2 Maya. There are years between when she leaves Pandora and Athenas . Krieg could not have seen her on Athenas. So his memory of her should be BL2 Maya.

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