Ok Gearbox! Let's Talk

Ok Gearbox. Let’s Talk.

First of all let me say I really enjoy Battleborn. I really really do. You have a big problem though and I think you know it’s name. That “other game” that is releasing so soon to this launch. I know they did this on purpose they have more money to market they have more fans their fans are more likely to buy everything they ever make regardless of quality. These are all disadvantages for you. Things that really aren’t your fault at all. So you need aces in holes. That’s right. Not one ace up your sleeve you need a whole deck of them.

I loved the beta. Loved it. I cannot say the same for the main game which frustrates me beyond belief. There are some serious problems that should be easily fixable that seem to occur over and over again. Things that when you release an online only game will cripple your game if they are not addressed YESTERDAY. Things that NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN an issue to begin with. You knew that no matter how awesome the game you made was you would have that “other” game to contend with at launch. You knew you had to have a stable launch that all the i’s and t’s in your code had to be dotted before release.

From what I see. You didn’t do that at all. From what I see you released the game VERY VERY CLOSE to finished but NOT finished so you could beat that “other” title to launch. I understand why you did it for all I know given everything I said above you probably didn’t have a choice but you still should have done some more QA beforehand.

I am not just talking nonsense here I have worked in the industry before. In gaming retail, as an alpha tester for previous titles many years ago and as a reviewer. If I am being perfectly honest FPS aren’t usually my thing so to speak. I love the outlandish characters and dialogue in Borderlands absolutely love it so it sucks me in despite not being my favorite genre. However when I worked in retail I would have many customers come in the store and tell me EXACTLY what they want in a competitive multiplayer game. As a reviewer I had to compare and contrast anything I was reviewing with it’s competition.

They gave many answers but three rang the most true.

Know what you want your game to be. If you have amazing multiplayer it’s ok not to have single player. If you have an amazing singleplayer game you don’t have to throw multiplayer in just for the hell of it. If you have multiple modes make sure equal care and attention is given to all of them. Don’t just add things in “for the hell of it to extend replayability.”

In that regard? You succeed a thousand-fold. Your campaign and multiplayer modes are all distinctive enough to operate independently.

Which brings us to the next most important thing they ask for.

If you have competitive multiplayer you need to have a ton of maps. If you want people playing your game for hundreds if not thousands of hours you had better make sure you have map variety.

In this regard you fail horribly and I am so pissed off. I don’t know why you have so few maps you have such a great game here you really do but when you have an ONLINE ONLY game with such a small set of maps? You are sounding your own death knell. I don’t know or care what your logic was for each version of the game having maybe 3 different maps total. People will get bored of the same maps People are greedy They want more more and more. Whether it is justified or not for them to be so demanding they leave when you don’t have it.

EVOLVE failed for two reasons. The DLC debacle and not enough maps. The game wasn’t a bad game it was actually pretty fun to play but it didn’t matter since the entire game was only a handful of maps.

Now as annoying as this is to have so few maps I know you have more coming so this will soon be remedied but your initial offering of maps needed to be more. A LOT MORE. Not because you are obligated to but because that other title is releasing as well you HAD TO. Yet you didn’t I don’t understand this I really don’t. The fact that you have a really fun campaign helps to set your game apart from that other title. The fact that you have barely any maps almost negates that advantage.

Still though that campaign is a blast to play (except for one of the middle levels which was really boring I don’t remember which one but it felt like no effort was put into it at all which is a real shame as the other 6 I have played so far were great. I think it is the first Eldrid level?

However the single most important thing to a competive multiplayer game succeeding beyond the obvious things like a good control scheme diverse characters plenty of options and upgrades to choose from. The single most important thing hands down with no equal.

THE TIME IT TAKES TO START A MATCH.

YOU FAIL YOU FAIL YOU FAIL.

I am so upset and so disappointed. If you don’t fix the time it takes for matchmaking to start your game will die. This is a prophecy not an educated guess. I have seen it happen to HUNDREDS of otherwise very fun titles. People are impatient. If your game doesn’t start As soon as possible after they press join game. They often leave. It’s annoying really. Frankly it is highly unreasonable for people to expect your game to start RIGHT AWAY right that single moment but they do. Not everyone of course but enough of them.

Now I am more then willing to wait a bit to join a game. What I am not willing to do is play “A Player has exited matchmaking finding new player” INSTEAD of playing Battleborn. You are asking the executioner to set a date for you with how terrible your matchmaking system is right now.

There is no excuse for this. You are ordering YOUR OWN EXECUTION. Why would I say something so drastic? It’s really simple. Those other guys who made that other game had the brilliant yet evil idea to have a beta right at the launch of your game. So what do you think happens when people are waiting 5,10,15,20 minutes for a match to begin? When they really wanted to play your game because their friends said the beta was a lot of fun. So they picked it up through word of mouth sales.

“Wow this is taking a really long time to start” I want to play this I do it looks like so much fun. I am having fun but didn’t that other game come out too? Everyone tells me this is a ripoff of that game maybe I will play that instead?" (it’s not but that’s what the "general consensus of the people judging Battleborn before playing it think) There are just as many diehard blizzard fans as Nintendo fans. There is no reasoning there is no rational. They were already going to take a ton of your possible sales. It isn’t fair it isn’t right but it was destined to happen. These few weeks beforehand were your chance to get as many people to play and get sucked into your game as humanly possible so that your game could survive alongside that other title through word of mouth sales while people eventually warm up to it.

All you had to do was keep your servers crisp and stable. More maps could happen later but the servers had to stay stable. As few drops as possible, matches starting as quick as possible. You have failed this city. This was the single most important thing to your launch succeeding to you having ANY chance of competing with that other game.

Again there is no fairness to it but regardless of whether your game is or is not better then that other game you were NEVER going to beat it in sales. You make great games and always have but their install base of rabid fans is at least 10x the size of yours or most companies on the planet for that matter. You had to keep as many people playing the beta as possible in hopes to encourage their friends to pick the game up too. This was really the only way you had any chance of succeeding. You knew it and I knew it too.

Like I said though people are impatient. Since your servers aren’t stable. Since matchmaking takes so long to start the worst case scenario is happening to your title hundreds if not thousands of times a day.
Not only are the people who got the game because their friends telling them the beta was so awesome having second thoughts. The people who actually want to play your game who genuinely enjoy playing it who already had played the beta who were the people who got their friends to pick up a copy to play the campaign with them online they are having second thoughts too.

You have to fix the server problem YESTERDAY. EVERY SINGLE SALE of your game in the entire 2nd quarter of this year is going to depend on it. Remember how I said most people were assuming your game was just a ripoff of that other game. It doesn’t matter if they are wrong. If that thought is in their head. Then their friends who are playing that other game start to tell them how fast the games start up? What do you think is going to happen? A mass exodus. The longer these games take to start the more players you are going to lose to that other game. It’s so messed up and not at all your fault really. More then likely the only reason games are even taking so long to start is because people who bought this are playing the beta for that. Yet even if that is the reason it doesn’t matter. Your matches have to start so much quicker.

I am going to assume it is not possible for your games to start as quick as that other game. My jaw dropped when I saw how fast they started. There are only a handful of companies in the entire gaming industry that afford servers like that and that company is definitely one of them. So they have a seriously unfair advantage there. So you have to make up the slack. right now your matches take a minimum of 30 seconds (which is perfectly fine) to a maximum of TWENTY FREAKING MINUTES to start. You guys HAVE to fix that. I cannot stress enough your entire game survives on these first two weeks. The momentum of the advertising campaign for that other title is otherworldly. Just assume you got into a top school on a scholarship and you are competing against the dean’s son at the school. That is the kind of competition you are up against.

You have a really fun game here. I love playing it I do but I can’t play an online only multiplayer game if there is no one left online to play with! Please do something. You have created such a creative unique title there are so many diverse characters those campaign levels don’t feel like some random throw in most are almost an hour long it is like you have two games in one here you really have created something truly awesome but it won’t matter if those servers can’t keep up. They will ALL LEAVE. EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!

Last unrelated note.

Unnerf Montana. Or fix the many bugs. I keep taking damage in campaign maps like I am on fire and dying. I keep “stuttering” as I walk. I think I am lagging but no it happens to no other character. It looks like lag or the framerate dropping but he just straight up “stutters” across the map instead of walking. This is not acceptable. Neither is his gun taking up HALF THE SCREEN. Which is what 3 or 4 times the size it was during the beta? I agree he was over powered and he probably did need a nerf. He didn’t need you to cut the tendons in his legs and zoom 300% on his weapon though. I think it is actually a cool idea making the weapon bigger it gives melee a chance to close in better. But you made it to big. You overnerfed. Now it is almost impossible to play him if anyone gets close because you cannot see ANYTHING next to you at all EVER. The entire half of the screen? That is excessive.

I am sure there are more but I haven’t played much of the game. I got to level 31 in the beta I have got to level 6 I think in the actual game because matches take so long to start. So I begrudingly started to try that other game out and I am enjoying it. I don’t know which one I like more and I will certainly be back to playing it on the 10th but those servers HAVE TO IMPROVE.

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Both the criticism and the praise in this review is well explained and thought out.

I commend the effort you took in writing it and the details of the topic, as well as the respectful tone you chose to use throughout.

Honestly, things like this do help developers see what their community is thinking.

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to add to this on the waiting part. in matchmaking it seems 95% of the time i have to wait the full min plus for waiting on other players to select their character. some one not clicking the final ok?

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Lack of maps is not at all why Evolve failed. And MOBA typically have a very small number of maps. Two is fine at launch…the variety is in the characters and matchups.

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I’m glad we can voice our opinions, well done.

For myself, love the game but my concern, Steam forums right now, are the frustrated players doing solo or team story missions and failing over and over. A game can not make it if the players do not have a sense of game balance.

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Definitely appreciate a considered analysis. I really don’t get lack of maps as a complain, though. Some games do the vast majority of games on one map and do just fine (League). Others have a slew of maps no one ever wants to play on. There are definitely some issues with maps, especially with Incursion, but I’d rather have a couple of cool and interesting maps than a bunch of more generic ones.

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I won’'t lie : I was surprised there were SO MANY maps. I mean, MOBA’s usually only have one map, because it makes sense : the game is not about knowing the mapS perfectly, just play and strategize. Subsequent game modes may have their own map ( Smite got lane maps for 5v5 down to 3v3, a basic arena, and a single lane map ), but ultimately each mode only have one map. And Battleborn is still a MOBA at heart, despite the capture mode being more relevant to the Shooter genre. So at the end of the day, having two maps is another mark of the hybrid genre that Battleborn chose to create.

I agree waiting times are long though. Especially when you’re alone, it would seem. I got bored and quit my Meltdown queue to join an Incursion queue, less waiting time overall but… We went against cheaters three times in a row or something.

As for the other game : the issue is that people had always decided they would play it regardless of the quality of competition because hurr durr it’s developped by a very specific company. Sadly there is nothing to do against that, except wait for those die hard fans to open their eyes. The company got way too much money to spend on ad campaign rather than on the actual game development, and their latest titles are proof of this.
That said, I agree that people that were just looking for a shooter may grew annoyed with Battleborn and seek their fix somewhere else. That said (bis), Battleborn and OW are very different game genres. OW is still a pure shooter with a simple gameplay and no real gameplan needed to play ( hell, you can even play duplicates… ), while Battleborn is more on the MOBA side of things with more emphasis on gameplan and actual behind-the-curtain choices that WILL matter, like leveling characters for mutations or building specific, dedicated loadouts ( as well as trying to farm the best items )

But overall, yeah the wait time is an issue, the cheaters are an issue, and there still seem to be some issues with balance that may or may not disappear the longest the players play and learn the game. GearBox will still need to adress this, and how fast and how well they can will for sure deeply impact the game’s future.

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Can confirm, that how the release was handled honestly makes me want to switch to that "Other’ game.

I was hyped for this game, I recommended it to everyone even before I played the Beta, hell I had some friends try it out and they enjoyed it too. I shelled out a the money for the digital deluxe edition; NEVER would I do that for any game, I NEVER buy games on release and you know what? I was right NOT to.

It runs worse now with crazy optimization problems, balance issues (Expected) and brutally slow servers.
I don’t care what planet you’re from 5 to 20 minutes is too long to set up a match! (that’s not counting the other 2-3 minutes it takes for voting and character picking, don’t worry you’ll always have that one guy who waits until the timer is up)

Until I see some huge revisions I’m not touching it again, I can’t stand how laggy it is now.
So brutally disappointed that I don’t even care about Borderlands 3 at this point.

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I don’t know, in theory the PVE/PVP merger is GREAT, but right now both of these seem incomplete.

I feel like they’ve been rushing the game for a while. Story just seems… cut. The way the prelude mission and the final mission work suggests that there should be a whole lot more in-between, especially if we’re going to “unite the clans” to fight the big bad. I never really felt like we were doing that. We did Eldrid stuff for half the missions and then LLC for half the remaining, saved one more jennerit defactor (who knows why half of the missions are focused solely on one of the characters while others, like the entirety of the rogue faction, have zero screen time), and that’s… pretty much it. Didn’t do a whole lot of rallying or anything to further the cause.

It feels like 2k force pushed the dev cycle ahead 6 months to a year or so to meet a "competitive release date."
We can only hope the multiplayer component gets frequent updates and patches to maintain a healthy community because I don’t think the planned DLC is going to make the campaign more robust. It’s probably something I’m going to ignore, which is a shame, because I was looking forward to that way more.

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First of all thank you to everyone for your well reasoned replies. Maybe I should post more in official forums instead of gaming news aggregate anger apocalypse forums where all rationale and sense of human decency is thrown out the window.

This post won’t be anywhere near as long and may have some typos I posted the initial post on my keyboard this is on my phone I can’t press buttons with my stubby fingers anywhere near as fast as I can type.

I wanted to clarify why I had such a problem with the lack of maps as most of you seem to disagree. Battleborn is a MBA and it isn’t a MOBA. They made a hybrid 1st person online multilayer story/MOBA cooperative multiplayer game. I haven’t followed as much of the devolopment news for Battleborn in the last year so maybe their stance changed but when first read interviews with the developers they were doing their best to differentiate this game in every way they could from being labeled as a borderlands moba. They wanted to create something entirely different and in my opinion they have close. Plenty of updates to come that will allow that vision of theirs to come closer to what they want it to be.

There is something separates the non moba/moba battleborn from all of those other Moba though. Most of those are free. This was a full retail title. It isn’t that they had to have a ton of maps. It’s that it was common sense to have them. What I was trying to say in the initial message is that having all of those story missions the two different ways to play the game gives them a huge advantage over the other title. Lacking maps in their full retail title though negates it.

In other words +1 advantage over the competition for having a coop multilayer story in addition to the competitive gameplay. If we had more maps and that then one or the other of those would seem like an added benefit to the value of the game. However without the map variety the coop story component just seems like the justification for being a full priced title. Instead Of It Being An Additional Benefit It Comes Off As An obligation. This is why it is 60 dollars so you can play the coop. Otherwise just another moba.

Put another way by having all of those story missions but not having map variety presents a completely different dilemma. Some of you mentioned most moba don’t have multiple maps. Fair point but they don’t have story campaign missions either. When you play a moba you don’t expect or anticipate map variety because you don’t have a story mode taking you to different areas. You have that one map and that’s it. The gameplay is with the many characters and their strategies. You don’t expect multiple maps because you never saw multiple maps. Get it? It’s a psychological mindgame.

That same added benefit in Battleborn with its story missions takes you to plenty of different varied levels. The story can be compared more to linear closed off sections of Borderlands. Now can you name a FPS in the last 15 years that has a campaign mode where when you hop online to play death match you don’t expect to be able to play in a closed off section of the majority of them?

They didn’t necessarily have to include a bunch of maps but by allowing you to play through multiple areas in the story you have expectation to be able to play through some of those areas competitively. As you have in nearly every FPS released in the last 15 years. So even though the two sections of the game operate independently and have plenty of content to stand alone you have this nagging feeling in the back of your mind when playing competitive why can’t I play there? What about that mission on that other planet? This would have been easily remedied with more maps you would only expect them since you saw them in the campaign this wouldn’t be a problem if you hadn’t seen them. However since you did see those other areas you expect them. Then the competitive multilayer just seems like an add on to the main game the campaign. Which I Doubt Is The Message Gearbox is trying to send to people.

I agree with this. Although, after playing open beta and closed beta, i personally prefer the “other” game because it’s less serious and it feels somewhat easier for me. Battleborn is too competitive for me to buy.

Wait, what? League of legends and DOTA say you are mistaken.
You may want more maps, but that doesn’t make your statement about online games NEEDING lots of maps to be true.

Definitely think the 90 second character selection is way too long. I’ve seen it crop up in a lot of games, but 90 seconds is just LONG. 45 would be great.

So you make 3 points here in this ungodly amount of text:

-Blizzard/Overwatch
-Maps
-servers/waiting times

On the last one I feel I can’t comment. Judging from how annoyed you are I think you must be on PC, since the console doesn’t seem to have this problem as much (wait time is like a minute or two).

On the Blizzard/Overwatch thing… Well, ■■■■ happens. There was not a lot Gearbox could do vs the intentional sabbotage.

Now the map part I have some things to say about, because I think you are wrong. A game doesn’t need lots of maps… It needs a few good ones. That’s the reason why they only play DUST2 on counterstrike, nuketown in cod (although that’s a terrible map imho) and Wake Island in the older battlefield games. Also, this is a shooter/moba hybrid. The moba part makes it harder to make unique maps since they all have to have one or two lanes and in the end different maps will feel very similar (like the two meltdown maps). That’s why most mobas don’t have a lot of maps, and still people play them for thousands of hours.

Also they are currently play testing a new map for each online mode according to that twitch interview that was going around yesterday (if I remember correctly). I also believe they mentioned more in the works!

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Nice. -.- This is so wrong in so many ways, and i really are up to leave this forum because of this toxic attitude. I actually bought Battleborn, i actually played both, and i can say for sure, that the other “Game” isn’t hyped more only for its brand, moreover its hype BECAUSE of its quality (if it comes down to the Multiplayer). I hate people who talk down other Peoples opinion and likings only because they can’t stand the fact, that maybe the other game is a bit better at some terms or liked more. Also you act like that Gearbox don’t have this brand-bonus as well. I know also alot of peoples who are interested in this Game to begin with, only because its from Gearbox. I myself, mostly was interested in this Game because of Gearbox. I mean heck, i bought Borderlands 4 times(1 for xbox360, as i switched over to ps3 i bought borderlands again, however i bought the false version, the German Version which was cut, so i bought the uncut Game of the Year edition and later the GotY for PC) and Borderlands 2/The Pre Sequel 2 Times (1 for PC Version each, and than handsome collection - also because of Playstation Plus i also had access to the PS3 Version of BL2, where i bought all DLCs again like i did on PC[except some skins]), i also forgived what Gearbox did with Duke Nuke Forever(i enjoyed it quite a bit) and Alien Colonial Marines, and now you want talk down my opinion that Overwatch is at least better in terms of competitive Multiplayer and say that at the whole package overwatch have a better quality while Battleborn has more content(thanks to the RPG elements, Storymode etc). And you talk that down to simply Bl****-Fanboyism -.- Also if this would be the case for other People, than the Moba-Game from this certain company would be still a thing and hyped as much as league of legends and dota2. But yeah, if thats the general tone how you threat people, i really should stay away from this forum…

Well to be fair I know myself for a fact that a lot of people are getting the Other because of the brand and nothing else.
I mean, what am I supposed to think when I hear people saying "hey I hardly ever play genre X but this one I’m definitely gonna get and it’s already fun in my mind!’ ? When asked how much experience they have on genre X, they’ll wave you out “oh I really don’t play the genre, I don’t like it, BUT THIS GAME! It’s different it’s just better!” Better based on … what? Nothing, since they aren’t even honest with themselves. They never played the genre at all and decided that since it was That company, it WAS better. Happened with their TCG, their MOBA, and now their FPS. “Did you play Magic, did you play LoL, did you play TF?” "what no lol man they suck!"
I came to Battleborn after playing the Other a lot a few months back, because I wanted a comparison point. How many of the people I played with ( and know to various intimate level ) followed me to just see if they wouldn’t like it better or just try and be objective? None. Zero. Nada. Nobody in my friend listS accross various social and game networks have given trying Battleborn a thought. Because in their minds, the Other was already better, and that was the cold hard truth nothing could shake.

Now this isn’t to say EVERYONE got that attitude. But it’s a thing. A big thing… Sadly. I respect people that chose to play both. I can’t respect people that blindly repeat, like a mantra, how every new game from the Other company is like the new Messiah reborn ( yup, it does happen. It does… )

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I understand what you mean, however there is one thing you shouldn’t forget. This Guy (OP) said that people like the “other game” only for the sake of the Brand, and not because the Game could possibly have really high quality. We could agree, the Other Game have its easier due their Brand, however only that alone wouldn’t keep the players. As i said before, look at their Moba. It had a huge Potential, it really had and still have, however the Brand didn’t meet the Expectation, Quality etc as it supposed be, and now this Game isn’t really a success. Only the Brand alone will not keep people playing. So even i, as Fan of their Brand, aren’t that blind to say, they only made perfect Games and never fail, because their MMO, had some really issues over the time with their addons, their HackNSlay, which is my most favorite Game from them, had issues(even though with Patches & addon plus the console version fixed the game for me), and that also DID a thing about the Population and their reputation, so it’s not like their brand alone is a guarantee that their Games are a success.

I mean, your comparison isn’t that good either. The TCG is such a huge success, because all other TCGs on PC are pretty bad. Its no use if Magic as example is in general the better TCG(where i would agree with you), if they only do such bad cashgraps Videogames. I mean i bought some Magic-Videogames, and mostly they are pretty bad. So even though in generall i would prefer Magic over their TCG, even i could see why the have such an success. I mean, again look at the real TCG, which failed very hard. Again - it shows you that the Brand itself don’t keep people playing, its their quality (also longlife support) which keeps the player at their Games. League of Legends vs their Moba: Please - i mean - sorry - in this Case its the other way around. How mean League of Legends players fairly tried their Moba.
And about Team Fortress. I also played Team Fortress 2 back(also the classic one a bit on lans) - and i played now a lot of “the other Game” - and if people(mostly haters) would be fair, even bot of them aren’t comparable. I mean TF2 is a better comparison than the other game to battleborn, however it clearly feels different.

Also - if you ask me, the Battleborn-Fanbase alone hurts the population much more, than the other game itself. You guys need to bring more contrast into this Topic. I mean it doesn’t help to claim which game is better, if both Games are pretty different. I played both and can claim, they aren’t even comparable at all. I mean the really ONLY thing which both Games share the same thing, is that you can pick an freaking character/hero/champ however you want to call it. If you make such an comparison, than we should compare now Mobas also with beat em ups, because you pick @both games Heroes/Camps/Character however you might call it. And thats the biggest problem, the normal playerbase or Casuals don’t know even the difference between both… but instead to explain that on a fair, and less hatefull tone, people need to overreact,…

@Psychichazard: Cute kitten =D

Yeah, you’re making fair points.

It’s true Their moba didn’t meet expectations, but whenever you say that around you, you will always find a lot of people telling you “whaaaat, are you crazy lol, look at the cash prize in their tournament!”. I’d say that a huge cash prize is never a good sign : it may just mean they are desperate enough to attract people they’d rather just throw money around.

The TCG, well, in a way you’re right : there aren’t really any viable TCG videogames around. However, as a pure Trading Card Game, it’s just bad, and, ironically, I found their real-version TCG way better. There are some very good ideas that could only have been made in a videogame, like “taking” cards from the opponent, having a second hidden deck, etc, but yet, the fact it relies way too much on pure RNG and sheer lock reaaally sucks, big time. But they managed to make it somehow nice to look at with tons of effects and fluff animation all over the table, it’s overall good looking and stuff. My opinion is that it tries way too hard to be funny and nice looking, and not hard enough to be an actual good TCG. I’d rather still go through the hassle of setuping OCTGN and play Netrunner or Magic or any real TCG, with some technical flaws sure, but what would actually be a real, deep TCG I’d be playing :wink:
In some ways, that videogame TCG is, as I said, “My First TCG”, a way to maye get people interested in trading card games and turn to something more advanced, more complete, more refined.

Agreed also on the fact that die hard LOL or DOTA players probably never even tried to set foot in Their moba. But since a lot of the Hardcore Fanboys of the other Brand never even looked at Lol or DOTA beforehand, at least for comparison sake, to see if maybe, just maybe, they wouldn’t like LoL or Dota more… Well. That makes for some very interesting communities! But it’s a sad and known fact that MOBA communities are rarely the best communities.

As for comparing Battleborn and the direct commercial concurrent… Well, I say they are completely comparable ! It has been discussed so I won’t reenact that discussion, but they do are comparable. What would not be comparable, would be Battleborn and, say, Civilization ( got that one in mind now that 6 has been announced, yay ! ). There are similarities to be found, and differences, but they are still comparable.