Okay, Enough with the Knockup

That’s it. That’s the limit folks. i’ve officially had all I can take from characters who can just knock you up, and JUGGLE you, shutting off your skills, removing your ability to move, and getting free kills. it’s stupid how much power is invested into a knockup, that it ALSO resides in the sole purview of two ASSASSIN characters; one who stealths the instant she goes on the defensive, and the other with so much lifesteal, it should just be his friggin name!!

So, here are my suggestions for leaving Knockup with them as effective, but NOT automatic kills against someone like Montana in a 1v1.

  • Knock up doesn’t shut off skill usage after the FIRST hit. This is the most obvious one. They knock you up and your skills do get shut off for that initial hit. But AFTER that, with say a 5-second cooldown for the knockup effect, and a 2 second cooldown for the skill deactivation, victim hero skills come back online. It means that…gasp Deande will actually have to use positioning and evasion to continue to deal damage, instead of just stacking as much attack speed as possible to get a constant juggle. Same goes for Rath’s CS. The CS does start a juggle, but skills and effects come back online two seconds later, allowing someone to do MORE than just hope to hit with an offhand melee attack to HOPEFULLY(if you’re playing a character that has one) knock him away when he goes into Dreadwind.

  • Knockup effects shut off the AGGRESSIVE player’s skills until the target’s back on the ground, and for three seconds after. You wanna juggle stun with Deande? Fine. Better hope no one comes along while you’re doing it, because your holotwin won’t be coming to save you when you start taking damage. As with Rath, it will force Rath players to stay WITH their target until Dreadwind comes back to active, and they can spin to win. Not much hope, but it at least opens up some counterplay.

  • Knockup is just removed. For Deande, replace it with a longer slow, or hell, even ALLOW it to continue shutting off skills, but allowing someone to DO damage instead of just stand there with nothing to do until she kills you. For Rath, give CS a hard stun instead of a knockup. Basically it’s what CS is used for anyways, but it will give people SOME hope of getting away or throwing up a shield/dash out before they die.

Dang i guess i should start using knock up with my Deande,I thought everyone knew quick melee stops her loop, even if ur slowed.

But that takes away a unique advantage that several characters have against knock-up (Caldarius, benedict, Tobi, Rath, I think there is one more person who has a double jump that I can’t think of) All of these characters have a double jump that lets them get out of knock ups or disrupt them and they can all do it without fear of being silenced. There is already counters for knock ups and they tend to be on characters who would need them the most (Caldarius would die almost everytime he got knocked up, same with Tobi) Rath needs the double jump in mirror matches. I have played against a benedict that used the knock-ups to his advantage. I feel like knock ups are the most unique cc in the game because they can be countered or improved with practice. So in essence it is the most skilled cc in the game. Because you can knock up ad juggle or get knocked up and escape, the other ccs can’t really be improved or countered with skill they happen until the duration is over.

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More than just Deande and Rath have knock ups. Quick melee will prevent Deande from looping her knock ups, and Rath is one and done.

It’s just another form of CC, and perfectly balanced. Stun has the same effects and is even better considering the incapacited target is stationary, making it easier for their teammates to follow up.

If you’re consistenly being knocked up by these two Battleborn, leading to your death, I’d suggest to focus on your positioning.

The only way either of these Battleborn will get a kill on you is if you’re out of position, either over extending or too far from someone on your team to be able to intervene.

If Deande is consistenly able to loop you, next time it happens, focus on trying to land a quick melee rather than attempting to run between the knock ups.

Her juggle allows for follow ups from teammates, but a player that knows how to deal with it cannot be solo’ed by her. And even if she cloaks away, preventing you from punishing her, it’s better than dying, but most of the time, Deande players will open with Holotwin, so they won’t have it to escape.

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Meh knock-up seems fine. TBH its more annoying with alani. Seriously a knockup and a stun bubble that screams shoot the crap out of you as a normal skill. (Yeah ok fair game) But I digress even that requires a team to back you up.

Ive seen thorns, caldariuses, and raths get out of knockups easily while shielded chars just raise their shields asasp. And negate most damage (ps nerf shields XD) Overall this is technically a team based game and you always need someone capable of backing your butt up. Not like it is 1 v 1 after all. Ive played rath and trust me the second I knock someone up everyone notices and insta targets me. I start spinning and boom there is a stun. It just takes a capable team.

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If you really want to experience the wonders of knockup, try playing a melee character in Heliophage, Renegade, or against mission with a boss with lots of knockup/knockback, honestly. In a normal mode run I made yesterday, I was juggled for 30 secs straight by Rendain’s stupid-ass spinning blades of annoyance and there was no way to get out of it because those blades just moved under me.

Knockup is super friggin’ annoying, I’ll agree. I would honestly love there to be some kind of diminishing returns or something to prevent players getting perma-juggled, purely as a QoL issue (because getting bounced up and down in the air over and over again is like super fun amazing!), but I’m not going to say that it needs to happen for balance purposes.

The characters that knock up have it as an integral part of their kit. Deande doesn’t have much damage or staying power; her knockup is really just there to let her control someone until a friend comes along to actually do the kill. Rath uses it as something to lock a target in place for a second or so in order wail on them (it’s like Gal’s shield toss, Boldur’s dash, or any other melee character’s CC).

Deande and Rath will almost definitely be reworked in some way in about a week or less. Hopefully Boldur and Miko can stop out running me. And she’ll be slightly burstier, and Rath the opposite.

That’s just it. With enough attack speed, Deande is AT her knock up strike again before you even touch the ground to get that quick melee off. And with a big model like Montana, she can basically hide INSIDE him to avoid getting QM’ed back. I recently tested it using my AS build of a total of 25.2% Attack speed. It was the first time I got a Penta kill WITHOUT using any skills to do it.

Except Alani’s is a one-time shot. Deande and Rath can KEEP you juggled. I have no problem if we’re fighting on even terms. If Deande gets the drop on me, and knocks me up, fine. That’s what an assassin should do. What Assassins SHOULDN’T be able to do, is shut off skills, shut off auto attacks, and force the defender to rely solely on a long animating, crosshair specific strike to get them OUT. If I miss one QM against either of them, I’m probably not alive to try again.

Thorn and Caldarius both have second jump animations that can nudge them out. As does Rath if he specs into it. But that shouldn’t be required for stopping THREE specific characters. I forgot about Big Daddy Atty, since his knockup abuse is quite literally legendary for how much it freezes people in place.

Sure alani may be a one time shot but by the time that happens your normally falling into what 1-2 melee characters/heavy CC to finish you off if not keep you up. Since quick melee can do that to some degree albeit characters have varying melee speeds. Well that and people just plain forget that there is a quick melee button Juggling isn’t exactly a new mechanic in many games. And as you did say[quote=“Khas, post:8, topic:1540495”]
But that shouldn’t be required for stopping THREE specific characters.
[/quote]

3 characters out of 26 isnt exactly a large margin for a mechanic to be changed IMHO. (maybe 1/3rd for the sake of balancing people picking them could warrant that) I see more rath’s than deande’s. And attackius is even rarer than deande from my experience. Though again when you see that type of character they normally draw attention unless you have a crappy team (which also happens a lot)

I play with rath sometimes and my wife occasionally uses, both characters are strong enough to sustain a small Nerf especially on their juggling, with that being said I don’t want them Super nerfed or anything but it wouldn’t be a bad idea sometimes I feel it’s too easy with rath and use other characters

A knockup thread that doesn’t complain about El Dragon?

I hope you never run into a good one lol.

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My wife occasionally uses deande I meant

And when Deande or Rath does it, the same allies just pile any AoE they can onto whoever got juggled. I’ve seen one Rath juggle three people, and then watched as I and the other players just wailed on them with fire, posion and explosives. Alani’s at least grants you control at the end. If you’re an ISIC, Kelvin, Thorn, Galilea, Boldur, Monty, Orendi, El Dragon, Shayne, or even another Alani, you have a built in escape mechanism against her. If you’re Caldy, Mellka, Benedict, Deande, Phoebe, Toby, or OM, you have a mechanic that shuts down most damage save for pure AoE or counter like Rath. The ONLY characters that are locked down hard by her, are Ghalt, Kleese, Ambra, Whiskey, Reyna, Miko, and I think Marquis. They have no escape mechanisms, and with the exception of Ghalt, relatively low health.

Deande, Rath and Attikus…lock down ANYONE they hit. And save for a double jump or a perfectly shot QM, there’s no escaping it until the skill times out(in which case you’re dead) or till Deande kills you.

I find his slaps that make him a ranged character, far more annoying than his knock up. It’s bad, but the slaps are what kill you. And he can’t KEEP you in the air, unlike those three.

If you got a pentakill, juggling all five people to death, without anybody on the other team trying to intervene while walking in one by one, the other team was absolutely terrible.

And the only way you would be able to test if it couldn’t be broken with a quick melee, would be to have someone else use that loadout, and you try to quick melee. Just because you weren’t quick melee’d with the build on, doesn’t mean it isn’t possible.

If I recall correctly, the juggled player gains control on the way down, which is why Battleborn with double jumps or dash abilities can simply jump or dash away before hitting the ground.

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So Rath killed you a lot huh? It’s ok buddy, you’ll get him next time.

Edit: Oh wait, this might be a Deande rage post from someone who hasn’t figured out that it’s not a perma juggle with her uppercut.

I feel like Deande is more powefull without the Uppercut, i always go for the lifesteal. You can heal yourself for around 60/75% of your life with a minions wave and full life with mercenaries.


I really think that only “Stun” and “Silence” should cancel Skills and not Knock-Up/Back (or even quick melee)

How many times did i just get canceled my ult wiht just a quick melee as Deande… this is so stupid

This doesn’t know you can use any movement ability to get out of Deande’s knock up.

Or the fact you can attack her on the way down.

Now Rath’s is different because it silences you.

To get a penta, you don’t have to kill all five players at once. I did it with deande by baiting and juggling. The first fell to a straight juggle. Two more fell to a fast AoE Burst Dash the was the finisher to one being juggled and me dropping off their healstation platform. I caught the fourth in their lane as our thrall was coming down along with the minion wave. I popped HT so that it rounded the corner with the minions/thrall stealthed behind them, and juggled them before my minions. They shot, i knocked up, the enemy died. Last one i admittedly got lucky on. They were coming to help their friend and i popped D’s ult. They made the mistake of trying to determine if i wss the real deande, or a glitched HT stuck dead still.

You can only use NON-SKILL movement abilities to get away. Double jumps or airdashes that aren’t skillbased.