Old player need some cliff notes

Yeah, it’s still the best SMG for Moze after DLC4 (in every build).
It does more damage than the Kaoson, has better synergy with MoD and Mind Sweeper due to the number of pellets and comes in two elements, which is always nice. It’s not a long-range weapon like the Kaoson used to be, though.
Also, it has a great looking weapon skin!

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Which is why I kind of hate it. Perhaps I just need more time to reconcile myself with the fact that it is the CMT of SMGs.

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This was a sad day… I still use the kaoson, I know it’s not what it was and the flipper is much stronger at its current state but I’m stubborn and just keep trying.

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I got myself 10 flippers with useless anoint but the gun is still insanely strong. The best ones I got are Rad/Shock with CH anoint and Incen/Corr with 160% splash. It kills faster than my Kaoson x2 (with a bad anoint though). However the Kaoson still feels more fun to use at least for me. It’s still good at M10 though with my MS + blue/green tree build.

I’m at Bloodsun now and my loadout is two Flippers, 1 Light Show with 100% weapon dmg, and Kaoson. From time to time I use the Dueling Peashooter from Jakobs (this handgun is fun to use).

Also did they buff IB in M10? When I use autobear, he’s able to kill M10 enemies in dlc3.

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Yes, IB scales damage with mayhem level. So does Shortfuse and FiTSD. Look for a Miscreant if you like the light show. It’s dropped by the boss at the end of bloodsun canyon.


Kaoson is still my goto SMG aswell. I’m not a fan of the flipper either. It reminds me too much of the ol’ Ogre and kyb’s gameplay loop, hipfire pray ‘n’ spray.

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DLC3 has a pistol called the “beacon”.

which can come with an ASE +100%+ (120 or something, or 100? cant remember the exact number - something absurd) splash damage bonus annoint. Its literally a hellshock that does splash and comes with splash annoints.

Obscenely strong gun.

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It still works don’t get me wrong I love that gun, I don’t even mind the dmg and crit nerf, the accuracy reduction is what kills me, not because I can’t use it efficiently but because it’s a Dahl and that’s kind of the point of Dahl weapons in general… I still use it in my load out without question

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But I’m sorry to side track this thread currently the flipper and the beacon Both are current strong metas for moze I’m just not a Maliwan fan

And yes iron bear is buffed to all hell, be it iron bear or auto bear it’s a huge increase to dps and worth investing the points

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I didn’t realized I picked a Beacon my first run with DLC3. I put it in my inventory and after you mentioned it, I tried it in M10 Fervor Trial. Yep, it’s a strong gun. No doubt about it. It melts. I still prefer the Light Show though for no reason at all.

Lol I thought Miscreant was a prefix to Light Show. It turns out it’s a different gun. I saw a video about it. It looks like it wrecks. I wonder why it’s not in the recommended gear list for Moze.

Ammo consumption probably. I think you’re running a blue green build though, yeah? So that shouldn’t be a big problem.


Blue/green and the version with the biggest mag.

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It’s not in the guide because of mag size and the difficulty of landing crits with it. It’s still a decent gun, but Moze has better ones. I mean to revisit it (since level 65 increased the passive bonuses for magazine size and it might be better now).

@roboteconomist I love the Flipper because I love Maliwan guns in BL3 (I guess that makes me a weirdo here) but I can understand why you don’t like it. I wish they kept the Kaoson as accurate as it was before. There are situations where I’d use an accurate Kaoson over a Flipper.

yeah, totally agree. That’s what annoys me the most with some of the nerfs they done, they don’t really make sense from a manufactor PoV. Dahl make their weapons to be reliable, Kaoson is the polar opposite, up to -200% accuracy and up to -30% crit damage… like, what? I’d rather have a bigger base damage nerf than those 2. The crit penalty also negatively affect crit damage rolls on gear overall i think. I believe you get less value out of it when using kaoson.

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A few of us have always existed. I remember all the early polls about favorite and least favorite manufacturer or people saying they destroyed Maliwan. Once they added anointments they became the best all around.

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Could I ask a few questions myself? I left when Cartels ended.

-Are chaining/ricochet guns mostly dead after they changed how they worked?
-I’m seeing that the 300%/90% anoint still seems fairly popular, despite the nerf. I’m guessing mostly for mobbing?
-Similar question about the consecutive hits anoint. I always liked it, but iirc it was only popular with Moze, but now I’m seeing it recommended as the best option for Amara. Was there a mechanical change or is this just people realizing it’s very good?
-Since the elemental ASEs got buffed, how do they compare to the weapon damage ASE? I’m looking for a rule of thumb answer (if it exists), I realize it might depend on the character/skills/guns.
-Did any of the changes make (actual) melee more viable?
-Not a question, but I feel like Gearbox overdid it with the action skill damage scaling. M10 shouldn’t be this easy, imho.

There was some other stuff that’s been bugging me, but I can’t remember them off the top of my head.

e:Tell me about any fun buffs I may have missed. All I know about is the Hellwalker.

  1. Builds based on bonus projectiles are dead, but chains and ricochets are still worthwhile for mobbing. Several ricochet guns have had their base damage buffed in recent weeks, including the Hellwalker, the King’s/Queen’s Call, Rowan’s Call; the Reflux was also buffed.

  2. 300/90 is still popular on Moze because it effects Short Fuse. It is good for bossing and mobbing. Check out @Prismatic’s post on using it to one-shot bosses.

  3. Consecutive hits is really powerful on Moze because you can hold the trigger down all day and ticks from damage over time effects (say if you light an enemy on fire with Fire in the Skag Den) count towards the anoint. It is really easy to reach and stay at max buff.

  4. There is a post on Moze’s damage formula on the board. The short version is splash anoints > bonus elemental damage anoints > bonus weapon damage anoints.

  5. Melee damage now scales with mayhem level and the Groundbreaker Guardian rank perk allows you to deal a fraction of the non-melee damage you’ve dealt over a short period of time as melee damage. The latter works really well with the Facepuncher (which is melee damage) and White Elephant artifact (which lets you place stickies that do splash damage).

  6. There is a huge debate on that within the player base. For Moze, I tend to think that Iron Bear is about right, but his hardpoints could use a balancing pass – Bear Fists/Salamander/grenade launcher could be stronger and rails could be toned down a little.

Fun buffs: The Headsplosion, Kaos, and Sawbar are supes powerful. Shield novas are really powerful now as well. You don’t lose you bonus effects with the Lucky 7 and Anarchy if you go into FFYL. The Lucian’s Call is pin-point accurate. Chuck builds are back using purple Tediore SMGs (Keenfire) and the Cutpurse Launchpad artifact.