On Mayhem 3 there is almost no point at all in carefully crafting builds

I understand the general idea of the Mayhem system, but the implementation seems deeply flawed.

I keep seeing “Class X Mayhem 3 Viable Build!!! (INSANE DAMAGE - ONE SHOT EVERYTHING?!)“ videos and I can’t help but think how silly they honestly are.

I can spend all day the next following days on creating a, let’s say, Sniper Fl4k build. I will farm all the good snipers, a Headsplosion, a Monocle, maybe a Muckamuck and a Lyuda, maybe even make sure they have a good anointed bonus. I will do some math and pick the best stats for this build specifically.

Afterwards I could upload a video onto YouTube as well with the title “INSANE MAYHEM 3 FL4K SNIPER BUILD!!! (ONE SHOT WITH THREE RICOCHET KILLS?!?!!?)”

Sounds like a great build right? Well except this build immediately starts to suck once you enter a new map because you’ll get the modifiers -45% Gun Damage, -50% Critical Damage. This build instantly becomes bottom tier. So was this build good to begin with? Maybe it was only good because you coincidentally kept rolling modifiers to your advantage?

I get it, Mayhem modifiers are supposed to force you to use different weapons to not create a stale meta, but it’s just not done right. They obscure your entire build, not the guns.

Is everything still doable with bad modifiers? Sure, I play on M3 since soon after release. But what’s the point in carefully creating builds if it’s a dice roll every time you load into the map whether it sucks or not?

Might as well just randomly assign skill points, because if you get a +70 elemental damage modifier, then a good elemental damage gun will shred regardless of how good or bad your build is. It feels pointless.

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tl;dr, you don’t like random modifiers.

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Not exactly.

I don’t like random modifiers that nerf you as a player. I read threads about really cool modifier suggestions like double/triple spawns (but only lower tier mobs) or enemies have increased size but are slower and whatnot. I would definitely enjoy that.

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When will people learn that builds doesn’t dictate how you play.
Your playstyle dictates what build you adore.

If you wanna play only with snipers the problem is yours.There are SMGs that are more accurate than snipers.

Modifiers are a non-factor if you are prepared.

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So, you are basically saying that even if we are playing a very obvious RPG with Borderlands, it’s stupid to think that our build should dictate our playstyle and that it’s completely fine letting the game force us what to do this map.

I do not see the point in the RPG elements then.

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You are not forced to play any build.You are thinking about min-maxing and Maximum damage is giving you some pleasure?
Sure play it , but its not meant to be good in every situation nor that you like it much.
When you find the build you like most and you start to play with it very well.You will have every gun for every situation to do it.
Its not builds really but the mentality to overcome or to come here and create the 9999 thread about modifiers.

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Ehh, I think you kinda make mountains out of molehills here.

Sure some mayhem modifiers can be a bitch to specific builds AND the system could use some tweak, but overall a good build will be able to deal with just about every modifier except for like super edge case ones where you will just either challenge yourself or reload once really.

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I just feel a little restricted by the overall build diversity. You can do only so much at level 50 and Mayhem 3 kinda just slaps you in the face sooner or later if you want to make a “fun build”.

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Not every “fun build” if any worked in OP10 even OP8 on BL2,TPS Eclipse or arena.Sounds pretty normal to me.But yeah I get your point.But that would only mean to make things easier or more OP.

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I don’t know about other classes, but the debuffs/modifiers are specific enough that it’s no big deal with elemental Amara.

-50% smg damage? No problem, swap to Flakker or Laser Sploder.

-50% fire damage? No problem, switch to corrosive.

There really seems to be enough guns that act like other types of guns (masher pistols acting like shotguns for example), that it shouldn’t really hinder your playstyle all that much. It does neutralize your one overpowering godly weapon, sure, but beyond that it does exactly what it’s supposed to do in making you use weapons you normally would just leave sitting in your bank.

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Thats what I was talking about
wesmart

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The OP is exactly on the button. Why are people defending it…

It’s not mayhem mode. It’s lazy modding!!!

Mayhem mode is more badasses, more annointed, AI is in rush mode making them swarm you that’s Mayhem!!! Not debuffing and buffing…

If they want to vary builds lower smgs and elemental for 1 week so it justifies changing your build. Not put in a position where it’s easier to restart the game an keep rolling.

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I haven’t felt forced to play a specific way due to mayhem modifiers at all. To me certain combinations just mean I put a little more effort into my gameplay and nothing more.

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Yeah, for me I just a keep a strong assortment of weapon types and elements. That way I always have something I can use no matter what modifiers roll.

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I’m with op on this one. I get the whole “if you have a good build, then mayhem modifiers don’t matter” arguement for moze and amara, especially Moze. Because no matter the nerf, Moze can pretty much tank through anything with any weapon. Not saying it’s a bad thing, but she’s not a great example. But the whole idea of borderlands up to this point was making specific builds to fit your playstyle. And now with the way mayhem works, it’s almost pointless. It’s become about taking all the skills that max out pure damage and survivability, and using fewer of the special unique talents that create build diversity. Could you imagine how boring it would be rolling and rerolling modifiers so you could play sniper Zer0? I like the idea of the system, but it seriously needs better implementation. Like instead of flat nerfs or buffs, what about do more damage while sliding/jumping or after slam? Or instead of reducing damage from weapon types, how about reduced mag size or longer reload? And what’s with lumping all gun types into two categories? Pistols, smgs and shotguns or assault rifles and snipers? Why not individually instead of getting rid of most weapons all at the same time? What about a mode that encouraged weapon swap or your health will drain or shields or whatever. Random can be fun and challenging without being bland flat nerfs or buffs. Or just give the option to play the harder difficulties with fewer rewards, but no modifiers. Just something that can middle the road for people who like mayhem as it is and the way borderlands used to be.

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Yes, this is exactly what bugs me about it. I always loved perfecting my build in previous Borderlands games.

In BL2 if you wanted to play Tank Sal with no Grog - you could. If you wanted to play Melee Zero - you could. Not from the get go of course, because first you had to level up and search out the gear you need, but that was also half the fun.

This is practically non-existent in BL3 now. Really weird considering how they advertised how much deeper the RPG elements now go with revamped skill trees and three action skills.

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I get you man.

You can only reliably plan ahead and build something if the surrounding factors stay the same. Mayham changes major dependancies willy-nilly and often flips priorities so if you build your character around regular bullets and splash damage (because the build actually supports these types) you can end up with modifiers which simply destroy your build forcing you to not only to respecc but to redesign the whole package (gear mostly).

I can understand that Mayham was intended that way but probably more as a system for people who wanted to “spice” things up. Instead Mayham is a “must have” feature that links into the natural progression of the game forcing you to use it. You cant really bypass it. You also cannot evade onto a different path of progression simply because there isnt anything else.

Normal --> TVHM (can be skipped) --> Mayham grind

Thank god rerolling is possible but its at best a player invented bypass, not an official solution. And it REQUIRES a solution because obviously people are trying to figure out ways to avoid the inconsistency.

Most people will probably keep rerolling until they get a set of modifiers that enhances their chosen build or at least doesnt penalize it. That doesnt sound like good game design to me. And getting out my “big boy pants” is a good way to aggrevate your fellow players but also not a solution. Your advice only would make sense if Gearbox would actually enforce a randomly generated set of modifers aka you cannt change them.

I dont think “building” a character makes sense when combat parameters shift so heavily that it makes planning and collecting useless. Because “builds” usually commit to certain traits and qualities in order to allow them to become superior in certain conditions. And if the game only provides these conditions if you are “lucky”…again…not really good game design.

Ho boy so if my favorite playstyle clashes with what the game allows to do “the fault is mine”. I see. Its not that I want all that much you know. In fact my “playstyle” is adaptive enough to allow for changes but by nature Borderlands 3 pushes you into certain directions simply by picking skills. And some of those directions push you into snipers, or into splash weapons or grenades or elemental guns.

That is not “my playstyle” that is the direction “the game” dictates to me. And then the game turns around and states “TADAAA now all your work and effort is for nothing sucker /birdflip” forcing you to look into alternatives which you didnt chose and more importingly, didnt gear for.

Yes…the problem is certainly “me” :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Preperation only comes into play when you have a higfhly adaptable build and not every class provides that. Also adaptive builds usually are not as powerful as committed ones.

So again, I rather think something is wrong with the game instead of me. Not the Mayham system itself but the modifiers but we do have a thread about those already.

I am also confused why people “defend this” for gearbox. Obviously some people dont enjoy it for various reasons. Could be lazyness, could be tunnel vision, whatever, not all of em are negative. Yet people who cannot understand that others may have a different opinion or view on things (its simply because they are not as affected, thats all…) come out to make THEM the problem. Statements like “suck it up” or “put the big boy pants on” really make me “lol”.

The system is questioned. The only solution right now is to bypass it via cheesy player interaction or by becoming so powerful that even the modifiers dont matter much anymore. Thats the only two things I was able to glean from the suggestions from people who think “the player is the problem”. And it only enhances my belief that the system needs improvement rather then the player.

remember that Mayham is not optional…its pretty much mandatory after normal.

Right now I play on M2 but I miss many items that would allow me the jump to M3 and even now I am forced to keep about a dozen alternative items in my bag in order to prepare for various Mayham scenarios. Still the fact remains that more often then not I have to put my most powerful gun into the bag or use weapons that I dont enjoy as much.

So far the suggestions brought fourth make me chuckle because they only underline the problems that other games are bashed for. Too grindy, too easy, too shallow…yes…all that for the current Mayham system.

I am not the problem. I want a system that ADDS to my enjoyment, not my frustration. I dont demand that much I think.

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I’m glad that you took the time to write that , and agree on a lot of points that justify what you actually think.However you must understand that I’m not defending Gearbox or anyone,simply stating how I think. :slight_smile:
Ultimately its the player who desides what and how to play.I think we can all agree on that.So there is your solution to everything including mayhem modifiers.

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I wasnt replying to you (mostly :wink:)

I realize that different people have different perspetives and needs. But if you fall into the category which can handle the discussed topic well (say you live in a country with a high cost of living but you are rich or at least earning well and the complain is “things cost too much”) then you are automatically disqualified from commenting or giving advice because you are unable to understand the complain or the OPs perspective (by saying “just earn more”). You are of course allowed to have a different opinion but most people state their different opinion in a way that makes it sound like other opinions then their own are the problem…this born from a situation that doesnt affect you in the first place.

Borderlands is after all a gun focused Shooter game. This game is about guns. People will pick games that suit their needs. Of course some mis-pick games then try to change the game into something that it wasnt intended to be but I doubt we see that here really.

I favor elemental gameplay. I simply like the idea of countering an enemies strength and I love the DoT mechanics of the various effects. This preference gives me a wide range of options already but not everybody is me. I mean I can evade into a large number of other guns and even then, get the “wrong” mayham modifiers and my game is not “spiced up” but instead I see myself majorly impacted in a negative way. So now I gonna use explosives instead? Ho boy, Amara is doing so great with those. Also I dont really have any “good” explosive weapons on me. Guess I need to spend a few more hours in normal mode in order to get something. But then the Mayham modifers change again and the work I just put in was for nothing.

My wife tho prefers Sniper gameplay. Thats what she wants from the game. BL2 and The Division and all other shooters we play support that decision. Shes not asking for god mode or being the strongest DPS, she just enjoys the idea and mechanic about sniping. She uses secondary weapons of course but thats an exception. if she was forced to bag her sniper and complete a whole zone and boss fight relying on a pistol or SMG she would rather not play at all.

And Borderlands, a game about guns…SHOULD allow and actually support that mindset. Only it doesnt. You might think that theres a lot of variety in sniper rifles but thats an illusion. Because most Maliwan sniper rifles are just a drag rather then a bonus. It really comes down to Jacobs, Dahl and Hyperion but strangely about 50% (estimated) of all sniper rifles are Maliwan. So we do reroll (cheesy, not intended and its annoying) modifiers to suit “our playstyles” and more often then not I bite the short end because if we get a set that leaves sniper guns unmodified or enhanced we take that even if it diminishes my own preferences.

This is how Mayham constantly flips you the bird. It makes you do things you didnt want to do in the first place and when you enter the next zone its like “hahaha sucker, lets do this again”.

See you are “just” another player like I am. You tend to like the system or think there is no problem. I take a different stance. If you say that “I” am the problem I could turn around and state that “you” are elitist or white knighting. Another players suggestion is at best advice, not a definitive decision.

Only a gearbox representative could do that. And I am still waiting for Gearbox to take an official stance on this. Right now the problem is not Mayham itself but most people think that Gearbox implemented it wrong.

I want a system that adds to my enjoyment even if that means pushing me out of my comfort zone (hell, those are the good ones). The current Mayham system makes me feel like I am punished instead, not challenged.

If another players solution is “you are the problem, suck it up or leave the game” (not saying YOU specifically said this) I doubt very much thats Gearboxes stance on this so dont mind me for not bothering what other people tell me. My worry instead is if I purchased the right game in the first place. And if i continue play the game or not comes down to Gearboxes decisions or statements…not what other players tell me.

And the Mayham system is a highly discussed topic already. As many people who think that its “okay” an equal number of people think its not. You still need to weed out the ones who just write angry rants or want the easy road.

But I personally dont want it easy…I want it fun. And Mayham right now is a hit or miss system and at the same time Mayham IS the endgame which means it “should” be fun all the time because we will spend most of our playtime in Mayham.

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