Only 1 strategy in pvp?

Seems like whichever team gets put on the defensive first loses… That’s what every match looks like in my case. If the other team gets to your front gate first then you’re getting pounded and going to lose… Never played a moba that straightforward before but it feels like the case.

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That’s definitely not the case. I was recently playing in a party with some people on this forum against another full party. We were on defensive for about 15 min before pushing forward. We were able to damage the first sentry before the time ran out and thank to our solid defence it won us the game.

I guess it depends on what your teams strengths are and if you’re in a full party. If it’s pugs vs pugs then it’s much more likely to snowball once you are on the defensive due to them farming the middle thralls and shards.

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In most games, it really is the case. In grouped gameplay, it can change, but in the majority of games that’s how it is. Incursion has a massive snowball effect, team who controls mid controls thralls, shards, and the areas where the enemy can shoot their sentry at lvl 1 from across the map. The other team is helpless and the sentry’s are pathetic, 3 or 4 lvl 1’s can walk into a base and blow it up without creep support no problem.

And that’s IF it doesn’t get solo’d by lvl 1 marqui from the other end of the map.

The game, never gets any easier for a team than the first 2 minutes. Once you start to lose ground, you’re just getting pounded by more mechanics, more npc’s, higher level enemies, etc. That’s why most games are being conceded by the death of the first sentry, some don’t even wait that long.

I think yesterday, all but 3 or 4 of my games were under 5 minutes in length… and that included a steamroll where we actually KILLED the rear sentry within the first 5 minutes. I unlocked my lvl 5 ultimate from the xp gained by killing it.

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Not in my experience with this game. We frequently end up going back and forth. Not that I’m the only person on the team but I usually have late game builds. Plus I’m pretty awful so once my items kick in I’m pulling my weight…sometimes…

I’ve seen aggressive teams lose. It is very easy to get over-aggressive, over extend yourself, and get killed. A good team will take advantage of this and counter attack and make you pay.

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This is far from true if you play a specifically defensive late-game team, if you’re getting rushed and beaten down a lot double up on tanks or have a Kleese on your team, stall out and play for the late-game then come out swinging with mass CC and billions of health :wink:

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Pugs? Good to hear there’s hope… I’m assuming teamwork is huge… Alongside mastery of your character and a working knowledge of the enemy characters… But this doesn’t feel like a moba to me… I’ve played those and I get those, but this feels weird to me…

Dude… Wut… @Jythri surely you guys intend to shift some thing to fix these kinds of problems right? I mean teams based should be a lot more defensible than this… Still love the game, just want to see balance arrived at

It’s faster paced than your typical MOBA which unfortunately means that it also snowballs easier. However GBX have already nerfed the M3 Shepard slightly and hopefully there are more tweaks in the works to prevent snowballing.

I admit I don’t really understand the point of M3 Shepard and allowing enemy team to build your buildables other than to create snowballing. Why don’t they just make it a 40 minute game and remove these advantages?

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AGREED-- enemy teams making your buildables needs to be removed. Additionally, sentries should be much more powerful against players… Tower diving in MOBAs is basically a death wish, but I feel like sentries are just worthless at defending themselves.

The first sentry seems to be able to defend itself pretty well (apart from cheesing) but the last one is pathetic.

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I’ve seen a Mellka avoid the Sentry’s guns entirely by side strafing and jumping very fast. I’ve also chased a level 1 Ambra past both sentries within the first 2 minutes of a match on Echelon without either of them damaging her. They really need to work on that. Being targeted by a sentry at an early level should be almost instant death like it is in most MOBA’s. Perhaps they could add 1800 shard cost abilities to the Sentry like it has on The Void, where it can heal players, pop an overshield or increase the damage output.

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I don’t like Incursion. Maps are terrible imo. Offers cover in the wrong places that gives the rushing team the advantage.

Meltdown is slightly better but now recently I’ve noticed people are pushing really hard at the beginning and even fighting while getting pounded by rockets. Is this a hero balance issue, my team sucks I general, people not paying attention to mini map, or are turrets still to weak? Maybe all the above.

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People aren’t diving much atm, not because they can’t, but mostly because they don’t know how easy it is. I can get so far into someone’s base by lvl 2/3 that the only real area I can’t stand is directly on one of the sentries. I’ve seen people just wandering around our bases chasing someone down for a kill, not even being targeted by the sentries, then just leave… getting as close as 5 feet from the sentry and then just walking out.

They are pathetic.

It seems the only thing atm the sentry actually stops people from doing, is soloing it with melee.

Their shields are okayish vs a lvl 1 but nothing to a lvl 5, the regen is trash on it. The health pool is again, okayish vs lvl 1 but nothing vs a lvl 5 solo. The damage it does to players is… I’d say medium to weak, the railgun shots barely break a player’s shield and most of it’s fire can be strafed. It’s LOS is hopelessly exploitabe, meaning it’s damage isn’t even an issue most of the time.

Most of the stuff in the game is nothing compared to a player character. You can take down any turret (which cost almost as much to build up as a legendary piece of gear) before they ever break your shields. The thrall are a distraction at best, and free xp for the opposing team at worst. The large 600 shard bot is pretty good, unless you get a shot on it’s back, but it’s usually dead as it closes in on the enemy. And the sentry’s are the worst, most ranged characters can solo the sentry at lvl 1 taking less damage than the gimme thrall camp guy could do.

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I rarely build a turret anymore, waste of shards and like you said, Xp for the enemies… especially if they have a sniper or Orendi/Oscar Mike.

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Here is the issue. In Battleborn when a sentry is defeated shepards are going to spawn forever for the destroyer team. This leads to some snowballing problems.

In LoL you defeat two towers and a inhibitor, then super minions spawn for a limited amount of time until the inhibitor respawns. During this time the one team can use this time to heal up, get some xp or boosts from the forest, and/or take advantage of this window and attack.

The problem is that shepards continue to spawn snd steamroll through enemy minions. The shepards need a limited time window or such.

DUDE… more than once I’ve thought that the cover is in the wrong places in the maps-- it feels like it pigeon holes the defending team instead of giving them an advantage… it definitely feels like the map design is more for an FPS and more than a MOBA.

I think there are some hero balance issues, but I think more than anything it’s that there are some elements in the game that are causing cascading… I’ve seen people constantly cascade like crazy with Rath (who I think has some balance issues with the width of his basic attack) but I’ve also seen cascading with oscar mike, and even MIKO, who I don’t think are overpowered at all. The problem seems to be with the advantages given to the team that gets most aggressive first.

Your final point is DEFINITELY too true, towers are super weak. I understand towers in central locations being weaker, since it encourages teams to fight over their locations, like the speed one in front of each teams base, that’s a crucial one and plays a big role in getting advantages, but one that should be fought over, so weak isn’t bad there, bc it encourages turnovers… but in the bases there needs to be much stronger defenses, and it probably means the SENTRY needs to have a constantly firing turret and not a laser that only shoots occasionally and can be dodged. There needs to be a constant threat of damage to the invading players when none of their minions are present-- that’s standard MOBA right there, and I think thats what @RottenRatPelt was saying, right? … nobody should be able to tower dive without significant minion coverage with the exception of minion spawning heroes (Kleese), but even then that’s a temporary dive. The part that makes that tricky is that the sentries have shields that recharge meaning if you don’t do X amount of damage in one shot then you’ve done nothing to him. That’s a bit annoying, and it causes a problem with the traditional moba approach of “whittle away at the tower” bc recharging shields make small, paced attacks worthless… Maybe shields need to be removed from sentries and their health boosted in place of the shields?

Another thought occurs to me… the speed boost tower in front of each base can be part of the cascading too, since if the enemy team builds one in front of your base you are basically walking in quicksand, and their minions pour in at increased speed… maybe certain tower locations are actually causing cascading rather than helping? Or maybe the speed towers need to have one-sided effects (instead of speeding up allies AND slowing down enemies, just one or the other). Also, as I’ve said before, enemies being able to take over your towers, at least INSIDE your base is a huge cascading issue.

Maybe if the bases had more of a “castle” like approach in the level design, with crow lofts and the like, it would allow teams to fire at invaders from strategic location while having a bit more coverage and discourage enemies from building in front of a teams base without a significant amount of support…?

@supermathv2 I couldn’t agree more, the super minions shouldn’t spawn indefinitely, that’s always a recipe for cascading, but in a one lane game like BB, how often should they spawn? You can only take a sentry down once before winning, whereas in other mobas you can take one per lane down, giving you multiple opportunities for super minions, unlike BB… so how many times should they spawn in BB? Once? Once every 3 groups of minions? I’m down for a change there, just not sure what it should be, maybe a timer…

@Jythri I just want to reiterate, that I love your game, I’m not knocking it, I just want to see it get better and better so that we can all be playing it until we’re old and grey. Do you guys have a pulse to some/all of these types of issues and concerns from the player base? I trust that you guys do, you haven’t let me down yet… though I’ve had bad experiences with other developers I believed in too… those who shall not be named… B***E :(

@MentalMars do you know anything?

We are watching everything right now. We have, and can still make changes to anything. As you might appreciate from the healthy debate on these forums, there are a lot of complexities and moving parts to making changes, so at first, we’re prioritizing hard breakages and only making incremental changes to mode balance and tweaking.

If we need to correct outcomes of modes, we can. We’ll go slow on this, however.

Another interesting question is whether it’s better to bring a new mode online that corrects the problems holistically, or to refactor a mode (or elements of a mode) that isn’t working well now.

Another ANOTHER interesting consideration is that we are a hybrid shooter/MOBA/otherstuff game. MOBAs typically have one map that everyone plays, and you micro-tune over time. Shooters have multiple maps and modes, and that’s important for the variety of those communities (even though they typically devolve to playing the 1-2 best modes/maps–I’m looking at you “Dust”).

We have both communities represented within our playerbase and on reviews. We take heat because we didn’t ship with enough MP maps. (3 more coming soon!) We also get strong encouragement to highly tune a few maps to premier competitive levels. We want to do both, and we’re going to try to.

But it’s never simple. :slight_smile:

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When should we expect to begin doing missions in the LLC Arcfleet and the Detritus Ring? Could you give us a sneak peek into their map themes?

Oh man, I can’t wait to go there! Probably won’t be for months to come, though.

If you want a sneak peek at LLC, though, unlock the lore for ISIC, El Dragon, Marquis. The background images you unlock there are some really early rough visualizations of LLC Arcship interiors.

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