OP8 L.cat build w/o ruin

(1sirus2) #1

It seems every Maya player I meet that runs a cat setup believes ruin to be essential. Almost to the extent that CA is essential to a sniper build for zer0.
Yet, every time I try to spec that far I have to either
1: give up the reliability of my phaselock ability
2: give up life tap and scorn
For the curious, my setup:

Does anyone else choose to forsake the cataclysm tree past reaper, or am I just going at sub-optimal efficiency all the time despite everything still melting in short order?
And yes, I do really like fleet

(I’m Nat and just a Number.) #2

If you have reliable way to slag then you can forego ruin ( i don’t think scorn is enough since i run a full nurse maya build in 72 and I still need a slag grenade). Ruin is also effective as a healing tool especially on non-phaselockable enemies.

I don’t think it is comparable with CA though, Ruin skill is more close to Kunai, Double up of Axton and maybe I/O of Gaige.

(1sirus2) #3

I tend to use scorn sparingly for fear of not having it ready when I need it, which usually means there’s mobs of unslagged enemies. For that, wreck+CR+Florentine is usually enough to paint them purple.
Healing is rarely ever a problem with life tap, but during some boss arenas there might not be an enemy to kill. I could see ruin being useful there, but a moxxi smg and AoE grenade often solves that problem

(What does it all mean!?) #4

just some comments on your build from a longtime Maya player, but keep in mind just my opinion and if you are wrecking #$#@ and having fun, then you have the right build.

I think you are overrating Quicken… With a Leg Siren or Leg Binder, the bonus is pretty minimal, just a few fractions of a second, I know that can be important, but to me, insta-slagging a target (and the healing that can provide too) is much more important, particularly as I can spread that slag with Converge. I realize you have a Leg Cat, so no CD bonuses, but you still are rocking a BOTA I’m guessing… It’s certainly worth one point out of Quicken to go get one of the absolute best skills in the entire game (Ruin) imho, but I go back to my first sentence…

You are likely not aware, as only long time forum readers are, that Flickr is useless shown through extensive testing in a forum post about a year ago I think, maybe longer… Those points can go anywhere since they aren’t actually doing anything right now, I would go Immolate, but again, it doesn’t matter much as you have the main skills of Foresight, CR, Cloud Kill and Reaper… Are you playing at OP8? If so, you only need 2/5 in Life Tap to get its full effects with how much damage your guns do compared to your health. Those other points can go anywhere, I like a point or two in Sustenance for passive heals out of combat, but it’s not a relevant skill really…

If your goal is to make a viable build without Ruin, then of course disregard most of what I said above :slight_smile: , I do think you are giving up theoretical max damage by doing so, but to quote Mr. Torgue “Who gives a #$##$?” again, if you love this build, keep rocking it!

(1sirus2) #5

I’ve had doubts about quicken before, but I like to use phaselock for wreck specifically so anything with a cooldown bonus is very tempting. I do use a bone as well.
Flickr is really completely useless? I didn’t know that tidbit, but I still need the 10 points invested to reach CR and I’ve never experienced immolate or Helios to be particularly useful. At all, really. But I’ve never done a full blown cataclysm build so I probably wasn’t in the best position to see them do anything remotely nice.
And you are correct, one point is just one point- except I need enough invested into the tree to reach it. Taking points out of sweet release would mean I can’t reach life tap, and taking points out of life tap would mean I can’t reach scorn. The amount given by sustenance always seemed trivial at op8, but I’ll take your advice and move some from life tap to there because it’s the same tree.
Also, I actually don’t have CK. It likes to steal kills and in multiplayer that sometimes takes a second wind away from a teammate, and then I need to use res on them and have to wait until the cooldown ends to get my wreck bonus.
I probably stress over the cooldown way too much, but without wreck procing it just feels like I’m not sending enough bullets down range.
Still, thank you for the expert opinion. Next time I respec I’ll remember to abandon Flickr, and maybe a point or two from quicken if I’m not feeling paranoid.


The math on that is pretty simple : it doesn’t add 30% to a gun’s elemental chance ( say gun [12%] + 5/5 [30%] = 42% ), it multiplies the chance ( so gun [12%] x 5/5 [1.3] = 15.6% ).

So you’ve spent five points and gained a 3% chance on a practically pointless stat.

Totally worth one point for the Siren COM though.

(What does it all mean!?) #7

“expert” would not be a term to define me, “experienced player” would be more accurate… it’s more try it and see, see how much difference Quicken makes in moment to moment gameplay I mean… go through one of your favorite areas with and without it and see how much longer it takes you to get PL back up…it may make a big diff to you to have and so you should keep it…

I looked through the forums to find that post on Flicker, but couldn’t find it. I like Immolate because it’s just more FFYL damage, no matter how minimal, how could that not be useful when compared to the other alternatives in that tree… The Cloud Kill thing is another area where you are choosing to give up more damage, but having more fun because of it, so keep going with it…

I also didn’t notice at first you had Fleet, I would definitely drop that one which would let you take imho the far superior skill Inertia… when do you most need to reload usually? after a kill, so having that reload speed increase is awesome…it’s one of those “hidden” DPS increases like Foresight… If you are Leg Cat’ing you probably want your shield up most of the time, so Fleet would just help you run away better and I think you can run away fine without it (a large part of my BL2 strategy with most characters involves running away so I feel very experienced in the area of fleeing wildly :wink: ) You could also drop both Fleet and Quicken and get Ruin and a little Inertia, but again, your goal seems to be to make a viable build without Ruin. Again, I suggest trying it with both (taking a run with Fleet, then taking a run without it and with Inertia) and see what works best for you.

(1sirus2) #8

I hate to admit this but 90% of the reason I use fleet is so I could throw on a RR and BB and zoom across the map when I fall behind the rest of the team looting the world drop sources


The only recent thread on Flicker was regarding its effect on Scorn.

It seems to me there was some testing thread way back before my time. Back in the Derch days I’m guessing.

(Community Jackass) #10

Moxxi guns cancel out Immolate, and that may be the reason why you haven’t seen the benefits of it. Either that or you simply don’t go into FFYL very often. :slight_smile: But many of the top entrys in the time trials are there because they’ve exploited Immolate. That should give you a hint on how incredibly powerful this skill actually is. Unfortunately, I can’t dig up any info on the actual math behind it, but it adds a ton of damage.

The guaranteed slagging of multiple enemies (with Converge) is one of the best skills in the game, imo. Not having to switch guns, or use grenades, is also very convenient. Scorn will serve as your second go-to tool for slagging. The consequences of the longer cooldown that you get from using an L. Cat will be negated by the fact that everything will die fast anyway. Really fast!

The Legendary Cat offers almost everything you could ask for in terms of dps, but offers nothing for survivability or crowd control. If you find a way to balance the build to fit YOUR playstyle, then that’s all that matters.

I also notice that you’ve skipped Ward. Is this a Banshee build? Meaning… Are you using a Rough Rider to get the most out of Fleet? (I’m aware that you’re using an L. Cat)

(1sirus2) #11

Skipping ward was to save 5 for fleet. It is a very useful skill, if I decide to use an antagonist or similar tanky shield I would respec out of fleet to accommodate it.
At the moment I jump between The Bee and Neogenator, I figure capacity and delay are low enough already on these two to justify the skip.
Of course having the five in fleet I carry a RR but I never use it in combat.

(Carlton Slayer) #12

Do you run this build solo or is it strictly for co-op play?

(1sirus2) #13

Yeah I use it solo as well, besides res every skill still pulls it’s weight and res is just the one point I would have invested in SR otherwise

(Community Jackass) #14

Why not? It’s a damn good shield!

On the Neo, Yes! On the Bee… A Bee with Torgue, Tediore, Tediore parts will still have a +5 second delay.


Yup. even if there is some tiny % (which i doubt) added to scorn slag chance from flicker it’s barely noticable. So I still consider helios superior to flicker in 99% situations.

(1sirus2) #16

So I took a lot of the advice given here. I went through my usual tubby runs(the dust up to mobley and gettle/ Badlands through the skag areas + Saturn) Four tubbies!

Inertia easily proves its worth, not sure why I never bothered with this skill before. I haven’t allocated the last 5 points yet, but I have noticed the lack of quicken. Changed my rhythm in subtle ways, I will probably still put those five here.
Couldn’t test immolate because I never went into ffyl, but as everyone attests Flickr appears to make no difference whatsoever.
Sustenance doesn’t really do anything notable so far, but life tap is still working as expected.
Still no ruin, but the advice has proven tremendously helpful.

Most importantly, four! I can’t respec after that luck.

(I’m Nat and just a Number.) #17

I would put a point in ward for com consideration (especially when you wear a bee), a point in restoration for coop (1 point is enough), 1 point in blight phoenix to fend off melee attackers, a point in backdraft to get you above healthgate when holding a grog, I would put the last point in CK (but you don’t like CK so do whatever you want with it.

(Carlton Slayer) #18

Sustenance is one of those health regen skills designed not so much to get you thru a fight as it is to carry you between fights w/o entering the next one at low health. More useful for characters that have long AS delays like Axton and Gaige…

(1sirus2) #19

Yeah, that makes sense. It’s kind of moot though, because life tap refills your health whenever you’re killing multiple enemies, and when it comes time to kill the last enemy it’s more than likely that the kill skills are active
That’s solo though, in multiplayer I won’t always be able to get those kills.

(Community Jackass) #20

Sustenance can sometimes be what saves you from FFYL when you have a nasty DoT on you, and since you don’t need all the points in Life Tap, then Sustenance is a great place to spend them.